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> Every country has there own version of history The variation is too great to paint everyone with the same brush. It's like saying 'everyone makes mistakes';

> Every country has there own version of history The variation is too great to paint everyone with the same brush. It's like saying 'everyone makes mistakes'; yes, but some make far more than others; we're not all equally accurate or reliable. Other countries have independent, free press; they can print whatever they want, including whatever history they want. For example, the Chinese government blocks all mention of the Tienanmen Square massacre of June 4, 1989, in print or on the web. They censure criticism of Communist Party leaders. You wouldn't find censorship anything like that in the UK. In fact in Western countries, academics are often criticized for being too critical of their nations - 'self-hating'. EDIT: See this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11862391 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11862391 > I doubt in how much details UK's history books capture the horrific cruelties inflicted by the kingdom for hundreds of years as compared to the history taught in schools of the victim colonies. Do you have any evidence? A history book? A study of history books?

rainhacker 10y ago
> The variation is too great to paint everyone with the same brush. It's like saying 'everyone makes mistakes'; yes, but some make far more than others; I think you are referring to China making more mistakes then UK in the past. If anything, I think it's the opposite. For example, the whole world made a huge deal(rightfully so) about the tiananmen square protest in China. Have you heard of the Jallianwala Bagh massacre ? Hundreds of unarmed peaceful men, women and children were murdered. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre > Do you have any evidence? A history book? A study of history books? "Britain destroyed records of colonial crimes" https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/apr/18/britain-destroyed-records-colonial-crimes?newsfeed=true https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/apr/18/britain-destroyed... You can see the bullet marks preserved in Jallianwala Bagh. There is a well inside the premises where people jumped to hide from bullets. 120 bodies were recovered later from that well alone. http://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/8-pictures-of-jallianwala-bagh-that-will-leave-you-teary-eyed-231833.html http://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/8-pictures-of-jallianwa... EDIT: Here is one more, it isn't hard to find with few online searches ".. Mike Davis tells the story of the famines which killed between 12 and 29 million Indians(1). These people were, he demonstrates, murdered by British state policy.." "..In the Express we can read the historian Andrew Roberts arguing that for “the vast majority of its half millennium-long history, the British Empire was an exemplary force for good. … the British gave up their Empire largely without bloodshed, after having tried to educate their successor governments in the ways of democracy and representative institutions”(9)(presumably by locking up their future leaders). In the Sunday Telegraph, he insists that “the British empire delivered astonishing growth rates, at least in those places fortunate enough to be coloured pink on the globe.”(10) (Compare this to Mike Davis’s central finding, that “there was no increase in India’s per capita income from 1757 to 1947”, or to Prasannan Parthasarathi’s demonstration that “South Indian labourers had higher earnings than their British counterparts in the 18th century and lived lives of greater financial security.”(11)) In the Daily Telegraph, John Keegan asserts that “the empire became in its last years highly benevolent and moralistic.” The Victorians “set out to bring civilisation and good government to their colonies and to leave when they were no longer welcome. In almost every country, once coloured red on the map, they stuck to their resolve.”(12).." http://www.monbiot.com/2005/12/27/how-britain-denies-its-holocausts/ http://www.monbiot.com/2005/12/27/how-britain-denies-its-hol...
- hackuser 10y ago
  >> The variation is too great to paint everyone with the same brush. It's like saying 'everyone makes mistakes'; yes, but some make far more than others; > I think you are referring to China making more mistakes then UK in the past. I wasn't, though I can see how that might be confusing. I just was using that phrase as an example of the near-meaninglessness of a binary perspective that ignores great differences in degree: 'everybody does' or 'everybody doesn't'. The question was whether censorship in the west is similar to that in China. > Have you heard of the Jallianwala Bagh massacre ? I read about the massacre in western history books. I saw a recreation of it in a western movie, "Gandhi" (IIRC). Two of your three citations are to western news publications. > it isn't hard to find with few online searches It's not hard to find stories of western atrocities in the west. But try finding stories of Communist Party atrocities in China.
  - rainhacker 10y ago
    I think you are mixing freedom of press with variation in the stand of a nation on historic events. My OP addressed the later.
    - hackuser 10y ago
      > I think you are mixing freedom of press with variation in the stand of a nation on historic events. My OP addressed the later. I don't understand: Almost all the criticism of the UK you posted came from the UK, and the sources I cited came from the West if not the UK. One quote you posted was one UK publication criticizing another on the matter. Doesn't that represent "variation in the stand of a nation"? Or do you mean some official stand by the UK government? Do they even have one? I'm pretty sure the U.S. government doesn't, or if it does it's completely unknown and ineffectual.
      - rainhacker 10y ago
        "The government of India, believing the gem was rightfully theirs, first demanded the return of the Koh-i-Noor as soon as independence was granted in 1947. A second request followed in 1953, the year of the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II. Each time, the British government rejected the claims, saying that ownership was non-negotiable." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-i-Noor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-i-Noor Also, I would be curious to see accounts where Brits punished any of their officials for the crimes in colonies. Mr. Dyer was merely removed from his post after the Jallianwala Bagh massacre. EDIT: one more: "British maintain 379 were killed - lower than the 1000 stated by India" http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2283438/David-Cameron-right-apologise--monstrous-massacre-Amritsar-SAVED-thousands-lives-says-Britains-historians.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2283438/David-Camero...

rainhacker 10y ago

> The variation is too great to paint everyone with the same brush. It's like saying 'everyone makes mistakes'; yes, but some make far more than others; I think you are referring to China making more mistakes then UK in the past. If anything, I think it's the opposite. For example, the whole world made a huge deal(rightfully so) about the tiananmen square protest in China. Have you heard of the Jallianwala Bagh massacre ? Hundreds of unarmed peaceful men, women and children were murdered. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre > Do you have any evidence? A history book? A study of history books? "Britain destroyed records of colonial crimes" https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/apr/18/britain-destroyed-records-colonial-crimes?newsfeed=true https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/apr/18/britain-destroyed... You can see the bullet marks preserved in Jallianwala Bagh. There is a well inside the premises where people jumped to hide from bullets. 120 bodies were recovered later from that well alone. http://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/8-pictures-of-jallianwala-bagh-that-will-leave-you-teary-eyed-231833.html http://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/8-pictures-of-jallianwa... EDIT: Here is one more, it isn't hard to find with few online searches ".. Mike Davis tells the story of the famines which killed between 12 and 29 million Indians(1). These people were, he demonstrates, murdered by British state policy.." "..In the Express we can read the historian Andrew Roberts arguing that for “the vast majority of its half millennium-long history, the British Empire was an exemplary force for good. … the British gave up their Empire largely without bloodshed, after having tried to educate their successor governments in the ways of democracy and representative institutions”(9)(presumably by locking up their future leaders). In the Sunday Telegraph, he insists that “the British empire delivered astonishing growth rates, at least in those places fortunate enough to be coloured pink on the globe.”(10) (Compare this to Mike Davis’s central finding, that “there was no increase in India’s per capita income from 1757 to 1947”, or to Prasannan Parthasarathi’s demonstration that “South Indian labourers had higher earnings than their British counterparts in the 18th century and lived lives of greater financial security.”(11)) In the Daily Telegraph, John Keegan asserts that “the empire became in its last years highly benevolent and moralistic.” The Victorians “set out to bring civilisation and good government to their colonies and to leave when they were no longer welcome. In almost every country, once coloured red on the map, they stuck to their resolve.”(12).." http://www.monbiot.com/2005/12/27/how-britain-denies-its-holocausts/ http://www.monbiot.com/2005/12/27/how-britain-denies-its-hol...

hackuser 10y ago
>> The variation is too great to paint everyone with the same brush. It's like saying 'everyone makes mistakes'; yes, but some make far more than others; > I think you are referring to China making more mistakes then UK in the past. I wasn't, though I can see how that might be confusing. I just was using that phrase as an example of the near-meaninglessness of a binary perspective that ignores great differences in degree: 'everybody does' or 'everybody doesn't'. The question was whether censorship in the west is similar to that in China. > Have you heard of the Jallianwala Bagh massacre ? I read about the massacre in western history books. I saw a recreation of it in a western movie, "Gandhi" (IIRC). Two of your three citations are to western news publications. > it isn't hard to find with few online searches It's not hard to find stories of western atrocities in the west. But try finding stories of Communist Party atrocities in China.
- rainhacker 10y ago
  I think you are mixing freedom of press with variation in the stand of a nation on historic events. My OP addressed the later.
  - hackuser 10y ago
    > I think you are mixing freedom of press with variation in the stand of a nation on historic events. My OP addressed the later. I don't understand: Almost all the criticism of the UK you posted came from the UK, and the sources I cited came from the West if not the UK. One quote you posted was one UK publication criticizing another on the matter. Doesn't that represent "variation in the stand of a nation"? Or do you mean some official stand by the UK government? Do they even have one? I'm pretty sure the U.S. government doesn't, or if it does it's completely unknown and ineffectual.
    - rainhacker 10y ago
      "The government of India, believing the gem was rightfully theirs, first demanded the return of the Koh-i-Noor as soon as independence was granted in 1947. A second request followed in 1953, the year of the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II. Each time, the British government rejected the claims, saying that ownership was non-negotiable." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-i-Noor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-i-Noor Also, I would be curious to see accounts where Brits punished any of their officials for the crimes in colonies. Mr. Dyer was merely removed from his post after the Jallianwala Bagh massacre. EDIT: one more: "British maintain 379 were killed - lower than the 1000 stated by India" http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2283438/David-Cameron-right-apologise--monstrous-massacre-Amritsar-SAVED-thousands-lives-says-Britains-historians.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2283438/David-Camero...