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The despicable logic they use is that they're not charging the person with a crime (because people have due process rights), they're charging an inanimate objec

by viggity 10y ago

The despicable logic they use is that they're not charging the person with a crime (because people have due process rights), they're charging an inanimate object, the money, the car, etc. Property doesn't have due process rights, apparently. Seriously. If you look at the court cases for asset forfeitures, it is titled "The State of Oklahoma vs $1,534.32 in cash" or "Iowa vs 2014 Mercedes".

protomyth 10y ago
> Seriously. If you look at the court cases for asset forfeitures, it is titled "The State of Oklahoma vs $1,534.32 in cash" or "Iowa vs 2014 Mercedes". That type of thing is ok in Admiralty Law, but should have no place in criminal law. How we got to a point where things can be taken from someone who is not convicted of a crime is beyond belief.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > That type of thing is ok in Admiralty Law, but should have no place in criminal law. It doesn't take place within criminal law. (There is also "criminal asset forfeiture", which is a different beast, and takes place within normal criminal process against a particular criminal defendant: that is a part of criminal law, and its a lot less controversial than civil asset forfeiture.)
  - protomyth 10y ago
    ok, fine, but I think civil asset forfeiture in this context is misnamed and bs.
brador 10y ago
How can an inanimate object be charged with a crime? It's inanimate, so by definition cannot make a decision... Also, if they're confiscating assets, why not confiscate the car? Why just the cash/cards? How do we get this absurd law overturned? What's the minimum required? Supreme court decision?
- brbsix 10y ago
  They've long confiscated cars and cash. They're just upping their game.
  - lettergram 10y ago
    Yeah... Now, the logic is: "You have a bunch of money on your ATM card. You can potentially go to an ATM take out cash, then get drugs. Now, I need to seize all your money to ensure you can't buy those illegal drugs that may or may not exist."
- roywiggins 10y ago
  They are civil cases- the objects aren't being charged with crimes.
dragonwriter 10y ago
Strictly speaking, they are accusing the asset of being a nuisance (sometimes, though not always, as a result of being an instrumentality in a crime -- but civil asset forfeiture doesn't require a crime to have been involved at all; they are also providing both public notice and private notice to the person (if any) from whom the property was seized of the action, and anyone who has an interest in the asset (whether the person, if any, from whom it was seized, or any other person) has the right to assert that interest, at which case they have all the rights normally attendant to civil process [not criminal process, because its not a criminal action, and criminal penalties can not be imposed.])
fennecfoxen 10y ago
Well, the real funny asset-forfeiture case names are United States v. Article Consisting of 50,000 Cardboard Boxes More or Less, Each Containing One Pair of Clacker Balls and United States v. Approximately 64,695 Pounds of Shark Fins. But the likes of United States v. $124,700 in U.S. Currency is obviously more dangerous than either of those: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U.S._Currency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U... And the list of cases here is hilarious as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_rem_jurisdiction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_rem_jurisdiction like United States v. 11 1/4 Dozen Packages of Articles Labeled in Part Mrs. Moffat’s Shoo-Fly Powders for Drunkenness, or United States v. One Book Called Ulysses, United States v. One Tyrannosaurus Bataar Skeleton, or Marcus v. Search Warrant of Property at 104 East Tenth Street, Kansas City, Missouri, or R.M.S. Titanic, Inc. v. The Wrecked and Abandoned Vessel, R.M.S. Titanic ...
- fudged71 10y ago
  These sound like McSweeneys article titles
visarga 10y ago
> Property doesn't have due process rights, Apparently, property doesn't really belong to us.
- zymhan 10y ago
  Well if property is people, then of course not silly! Corporations are also people, so you can't really have one of those either.
- pigpaws 10y ago
  try not paying your property tax and see what happens. Deeds mean nothing. Receipts mean nothing. Registration means nothing. The State owns everything.
uremog 10y ago
There's a whole stack of gold bricks in Ft. Knox that's done me wrong. Where can I file?

by viggity 10y ago

protomyth 10y ago

> Seriously. If you look at the court cases for asset forfeitures, it is titled "The State of Oklahoma vs $1,534.32 in cash" or "Iowa vs 2014 Mercedes". That type of thing is ok in Admiralty Law, but should have no place in criminal law. How we got to a point where things can be taken from someone who is not convicted of a crime is beyond belief.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> That type of thing is ok in Admiralty Law, but should have no place in criminal law. It doesn't take place within criminal law. (There is also "criminal asset forfeiture", which is a different beast, and takes place within normal criminal process against a particular criminal defendant: that is a part of criminal law, and its a lot less controversial than civil asset forfeiture.)
- protomyth 10y ago
  ok, fine, but I think civil asset forfeiture in this context is misnamed and bs.

brador 10y ago

How can an inanimate object be charged with a crime? It's inanimate, so by definition cannot make a decision... Also, if they're confiscating assets, why not confiscate the car? Why just the cash/cards? How do we get this absurd law overturned? What's the minimum required? Supreme court decision?

brbsix 10y ago
They've long confiscated cars and cash. They're just upping their game.
- lettergram 10y ago
  Yeah... Now, the logic is: "You have a bunch of money on your ATM card. You can potentially go to an ATM take out cash, then get drugs. Now, I need to seize all your money to ensure you can't buy those illegal drugs that may or may not exist."
roywiggins 10y ago
They are civil cases- the objects aren't being charged with crimes.

dragonwriter 10y ago

Strictly speaking, they are accusing the asset of being a nuisance (sometimes, though not always, as a result of being an instrumentality in a crime -- but civil asset forfeiture doesn't require a crime to have been involved at all; they are also providing both public notice and private notice to the person (if any) from whom the property was seized of the action, and anyone who has an interest in the asset (whether the person, if any, from whom it was seized, or any other person) has the right to assert that interest, at which case they have all the rights normally attendant to civil process [not criminal process, because its not a criminal action, and criminal penalties can not be imposed.])

fennecfoxen 10y ago

Well, the real funny asset-forfeiture case names are United States v. Article Consisting of 50,000 Cardboard Boxes More or Less, Each Containing One Pair of Clacker Balls and United States v. Approximately 64,695 Pounds of Shark Fins. But the likes of United States v. $124,700 in U.S. Currency is obviously more dangerous than either of those: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U.S._Currency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U... And the list of cases here is hilarious as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_rem_jurisdiction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_rem_jurisdiction like United States v. 11 1/4 Dozen Packages of Articles Labeled in Part Mrs. Moffat’s Shoo-Fly Powders for Drunkenness, or United States v. One Book Called Ulysses, United States v. One Tyrannosaurus Bataar Skeleton, or Marcus v. Search Warrant of Property at 104 East Tenth Street, Kansas City, Missouri, or R.M.S. Titanic, Inc. v. The Wrecked and Abandoned Vessel, R.M.S. Titanic ...

fudged71 10y ago
These sound like McSweeneys article titles

visarga 10y ago

> Property doesn't have due process rights, Apparently, property doesn't really belong to us.

zymhan 10y ago
Well if property is people, then of course not silly! Corporations are also people, so you can't really have one of those either.
pigpaws 10y ago
try not paying your property tax and see what happens. Deeds mean nothing. Receipts mean nothing. Registration means nothing. The State owns everything.

uremog 10y ago

There's a whole stack of gold bricks in Ft. Knox that's done me wrong. Where can I file?