7 ms·

The Indian Miracle-Buster Stuck in Finland

125 points by andrewl 10y ago

bemmu 10y ago
There is a great interview of him in this podcast: http://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu/258 http://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu/258
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
enlightenedfool 10y ago
"..he was getting threatening phone calls from policemen proclaiming their intention to arrest him..". This is the disturbing thing, more than the threats he received from the foolish religious groups. An utter failure on the part of government, law and democracy.
- denzil_correa 10y ago
  > An utter failure on the part of government, law and democracy. The lack of law enforcement in India would be her biggest barrier to achieve anything significant.
  - sremani 10y ago
    Or is it ? India has its own weird 'Political Correctness', you basically cannot offend religious feelings of people. If there is a group complaining, they consider it disturbance of peace or harmony. I can completely see where the Bishop told some councilor or connected guy in his congregation and some power broker trying to muzzle this dude by exerting influence on Police saying that, this guy is insulting Catholicism etc.
- spacehome 10y ago
  Meh. It's a failure of liberal humanistic principles, but part of the problem is that this is democracy and law in action.
kapilkaisare 10y ago
Is there a current update on this guy? This was written in 2014.
- TorKlingberg 10y ago
  I found some recent articles interviewing him: http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-09-06/news/66268240_1_rationalist-movement-indian-rationalist-association-elimination http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-09-06/news... http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/all-pm-has-to-do-is-call-rationalism-part-of-our-ethos/ http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/all-pm-h...
- vermontdevil 10y ago
  Still in Finland it seems according to his twitter: https://twitter.com/sanaledamaruku https://twitter.com/sanaledamaruku
supahfly_remix 10y ago
Could the fakir be brought up on attempted murder charges?
- la6470 10y ago
  It's not the fakir it's the Catholic Churches
- soylentcola 10y ago
  I guess as much as someone pointing a toy gun at someone else while going "pew! pew! I swear this is a real gun!"
  - savanaly 10y ago
    Isn't the difference there that in your example the person clearly did not intend to kill anyone?
  - nilved 10y ago
    Most jurisdictions would consider that to be aggravated assault.
- FeepingCreature 10y ago
  I only know for German law, but over here the requirement is that the crime must have a basis in physical law. That is, somebody trying to murder you with a Voodoo doll cannot be held responsible, but somebody weak throwing a rock at you and falling short can, because even though the attempt had no practical chance at succeeding it was based on a legitimate physical premise.
- nileshtrivedi 10y ago
  He ran away after the incident with the church, not with the fakir. This is BBC being typical BBC when it comes to India. After the TV show with the fakir, there were lively debates on TV about superstitions, science etc. I don't think he felt a threat to life, since many Hindus publicly supported him. The response in the church incident was completely different. (Not saying that the fakir incident couldn't have been a contributing factor in whether he felt safe.) On BBC's India coverage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Indian_sentiment#BBC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Indian_sentiment#BBC
ordbajsare 10y ago
This just in "Western culture is the best"
amalag 10y ago
Thankfully this article squarely places the blame on the Catholic organizations. In Indian media, Hindu groups become the scapegoat for abuses of intellectuals.
- sidcool 10y ago
  Well Hindu groups did kill Dabholkar, Pansekar etc.
  - amalag 10y ago
    The difference is that the Catholic groups are considered mainstream and even "secular". There are many Hindu fringe groups, including the ones that occupied Mathura land for months, but they are not considered "secular".
simula67 10y ago
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanal_Edamaruku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanal_Edamaruku "In March 2012, Edamaruku investigated a report that a crucifix at Our Lady of Velankanni church in Mumbai was dripping water from the feet. His research indicated that the dripping was caused by capillary action from a clogged drain. In April 2012 the Catholic Church in Mumbai filed a complaint under Section 295(A) of the Indian Penal Code in several police stations around the city." If you are Catholic, please write to the Mumbai Archdiocese to withdraw the complaint : http://www.archdioceseofbombay.org/ http://www.archdioceseofbombay.org/ EDIT: Hmmm, more digging reveals a different story. From http://thehumanist.com/march-april-2013/blasphemy-free-speech-and-rationalisman-interview-withsanal-edamaruku/ http://thehumanist.com/march-april-2013/blasphemy-free-speec... "Catholic leaders even disputed the scientific validity of capillary action. In the face of our documentation, they later found it prudent to modify their position, ignoring the facts and customizing it as a political weapon." "However, the auxiliary bishop of Mumbai made official statements in the press saying that he publicly “rejoiced” and praised the “courageous” Catholic laity leaders who had filed police complaints against me." But from here : https://youtu.be/TfJ6_ftih0s https://youtu.be/TfJ6_ftih0s, it looks like he made disparaging remarks against the church and goaded people to raise cases against him
- denzil_correa 10y ago
  > In April 2012 the Catholic Church in Mumbai filed a complaint under Section 295(A) of the Indian Penal Code in several police stations around the city. I would like source that the Catholic Church filed the complaint. The Wikipedia article leads to a source from the OP's article. Here is what the source says > In the following weeks, three police stations in Mumbai took up blasphemy cases filed against him by Catholic groups under the notorious Section 295a of India's colonial-era penal code. Apparently, they are some Catholic groups and not the Catholic Church. However, the real culprit here is the Catholic Secular Form (CSF) > the Catholic Secular Forum (CSF), one of the groups that made the initial complaint, still insists it will press for prosecution should he ever return. That said, the Catholic Church are not absolved of their blame either. The church wanted an apology - case drop barter solution > Cardinal Oswald Gracias of Mumbai tried to broker a solution by calling upon Edamaruku to apologise and on Catholic groups to drop their case in return. In any case, the Catholic Church does not seem to have made the complaint. However, one should still write to the Catholic Church to urge the groups like CSF to unconditionally withdraw their complaints.
wueiued 10y ago
It is already reality in Europe. Punishment for apostasy is death. There are several people in UK and France, who have to hide from their relatives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Punishment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Punishment
- djrogers 10y ago
  There is however a significant difference between legal prosecution supported by the government, and religious zealotry. Perhaps not to the victim, but as a society it does matter.
  - wueiued 10y ago
    But this is already supported by government. There is no willingness to investigate such crimes. Sometimes even state officials covers-up such crimes (Cologne) and it has to be "leaked".
    - ever1 10y ago
      source ?
      - briandear 10y ago
        http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cologne-police-ordered-to-remove-word-rape-from-reports-into-new-year-s-eve-sexual-assaults-a6972471.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cologne-polic... http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/06/cologne-police-reveal-cover-new-years-eve-rape-attacks-ordered-government/ http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/06/cologne-police-re... http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-that-covers-up-mass-sex-attacks-by-migrant-men-swedens-record-is-shameful/ http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-that...
        briandear 10y ago
        Downvoting links to requested sources that support the claim of cover ups in Cologne? Ridiculousness. Would a Guardian link have been upvoted? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/06/tensions-rise-in-germany-over-handling-of-mass-sexual-assaults-in-cologne https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/06/tensions-rise-...
mohsinr 10y ago
This guy reminds me legendary James Randi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Z7KeNCi7g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Z7KeNCi7g
- stuaxo 10y ago
  Wonder if they know each other, seems like they would have something to talk about.
hourislate 10y ago
This has had to effect the Diocese financially, including the local law enforcement and politicians. I can only imagine that this statue was their poor attempt in monetizing a so called "Miracle". Hence the venomous attack and persecution of a man who's only crime was to expose the Truth. Now these people have seen their revenue stream dry up and are furious. The Vatican itself should investigate the people in the Diocese who have instigated this sinful and hateful act. I would like to see the Pope take this matter up personally and invite this gentleman to Rome. Disclosure: Catholic
narag 10y ago
He should send a complaint to the Pope. I don't believe Francisco would agree with the local catholic representatives and could rebuke them.
bruceb 10y ago
Sometimes when this story comes up what is NOT made clear is that the church complaint is not that he debunked the miracle but that he said they where purposefully profiting off something they knew was false. One could argue they did and it is a distinction without a difference. It is slightly different though than the spin in headlines of this story which makes it sound more outrageous. The headlines often say the legal threat is to do only with him debunking a miracle.
sidcool 10y ago
As an Indian, I feel ashamed.
univalent 10y ago
So stupid. People would literally rather drink toilet water than accept the truth? The Indian police routinely doesn't do anything to protect people that are being attacked (physically or otherwise) by large groups because politicians pressure them to do nothing (to not lose votes).
- briandear 10y ago
  There's democracy.
  - abc_lisper 10y ago
    Damn.
pencildiver 10y ago
James Randi needs to help this guy...

125 points by andrewl 10y ago

bemmu 10y ago

There is a great interview of him in this podcast: http://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu/258 http://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu/258

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

enlightenedfool 10y ago

"..he was getting threatening phone calls from policemen proclaiming their intention to arrest him..". This is the disturbing thing, more than the threats he received from the foolish religious groups. An utter failure on the part of government, law and democracy.

denzil_correa 10y ago
> An utter failure on the part of government, law and democracy. The lack of law enforcement in India would be her biggest barrier to achieve anything significant.
- sremani 10y ago
  Or is it ? India has its own weird 'Political Correctness', you basically cannot offend religious feelings of people. If there is a group complaining, they consider it disturbance of peace or harmony. I can completely see where the Bishop told some councilor or connected guy in his congregation and some power broker trying to muzzle this dude by exerting influence on Police saying that, this guy is insulting Catholicism etc.
spacehome 10y ago
Meh. It's a failure of liberal humanistic principles, but part of the problem is that this is democracy and law in action.

kapilkaisare 10y ago

Is there a current update on this guy? This was written in 2014.

TorKlingberg 10y ago
I found some recent articles interviewing him: http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-09-06/news/66268240_1_rationalist-movement-indian-rationalist-association-elimination http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-09-06/news... http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/all-pm-has-to-do-is-call-rationalism-part-of-our-ethos/ http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/all-pm-h...
vermontdevil 10y ago
Still in Finland it seems according to his twitter: https://twitter.com/sanaledamaruku https://twitter.com/sanaledamaruku

supahfly_remix 10y ago

Could the fakir be brought up on attempted murder charges?

la6470 10y ago
It's not the fakir it's the Catholic Churches
soylentcola 10y ago
I guess as much as someone pointing a toy gun at someone else while going "pew! pew! I swear this is a real gun!"
- savanaly 10y ago
  Isn't the difference there that in your example the person clearly did not intend to kill anyone?
- nilved 10y ago
  Most jurisdictions would consider that to be aggravated assault.
FeepingCreature 10y ago
I only know for German law, but over here the requirement is that the crime must have a basis in physical law. That is, somebody trying to murder you with a Voodoo doll cannot be held responsible, but somebody weak throwing a rock at you and falling short can, because even though the attempt had no practical chance at succeeding it was based on a legitimate physical premise.
nileshtrivedi 10y ago
He ran away after the incident with the church, not with the fakir. This is BBC being typical BBC when it comes to India. After the TV show with the fakir, there were lively debates on TV about superstitions, science etc. I don't think he felt a threat to life, since many Hindus publicly supported him. The response in the church incident was completely different. (Not saying that the fakir incident couldn't have been a contributing factor in whether he felt safe.) On BBC's India coverage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Indian_sentiment#BBC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Indian_sentiment#BBC

ordbajsare 10y ago

This just in "Western culture is the best"

amalag 10y ago

Thankfully this article squarely places the blame on the Catholic organizations. In Indian media, Hindu groups become the scapegoat for abuses of intellectuals.

sidcool 10y ago
Well Hindu groups did kill Dabholkar, Pansekar etc.
- amalag 10y ago
  The difference is that the Catholic groups are considered mainstream and even "secular". There are many Hindu fringe groups, including the ones that occupied Mathura land for months, but they are not considered "secular".

simula67 10y ago

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanal_Edamaruku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanal_Edamaruku "In March 2012, Edamaruku investigated a report that a crucifix at Our Lady of Velankanni church in Mumbai was dripping water from the feet. His research indicated that the dripping was caused by capillary action from a clogged drain. In April 2012 the Catholic Church in Mumbai filed a complaint under Section 295(A) of the Indian Penal Code in several police stations around the city." If you are Catholic, please write to the Mumbai Archdiocese to withdraw the complaint : http://www.archdioceseofbombay.org/ http://www.archdioceseofbombay.org/ EDIT: Hmmm, more digging reveals a different story. From http://thehumanist.com/march-april-2013/blasphemy-free-speech-and-rationalisman-interview-withsanal-edamaruku/ http://thehumanist.com/march-april-2013/blasphemy-free-speec... "Catholic leaders even disputed the scientific validity of capillary action. In the face of our documentation, they later found it prudent to modify their position, ignoring the facts and customizing it as a political weapon." "However, the auxiliary bishop of Mumbai made official statements in the press saying that he publicly “rejoiced” and praised the “courageous” Catholic laity leaders who had filed police complaints against me." But from here : https://youtu.be/TfJ6_ftih0s https://youtu.be/TfJ6_ftih0s, it looks like he made disparaging remarks against the church and goaded people to raise cases against him

denzil_correa 10y ago
> In April 2012 the Catholic Church in Mumbai filed a complaint under Section 295(A) of the Indian Penal Code in several police stations around the city. I would like source that the Catholic Church filed the complaint. The Wikipedia article leads to a source from the OP's article. Here is what the source says > In the following weeks, three police stations in Mumbai took up blasphemy cases filed against him by Catholic groups under the notorious Section 295a of India's colonial-era penal code. Apparently, they are some Catholic groups and not the Catholic Church. However, the real culprit here is the Catholic Secular Form (CSF) > the Catholic Secular Forum (CSF), one of the groups that made the initial complaint, still insists it will press for prosecution should he ever return. That said, the Catholic Church are not absolved of their blame either. The church wanted an apology - case drop barter solution > Cardinal Oswald Gracias of Mumbai tried to broker a solution by calling upon Edamaruku to apologise and on Catholic groups to drop their case in return. In any case, the Catholic Church does not seem to have made the complaint. However, one should still write to the Catholic Church to urge the groups like CSF to unconditionally withdraw their complaints.

wueiued 10y ago

It is already reality in Europe. Punishment for apostasy is death. There are several people in UK and France, who have to hide from their relatives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Punishment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Punishment

djrogers 10y ago
There is however a significant difference between legal prosecution supported by the government, and religious zealotry. Perhaps not to the victim, but as a society it does matter.
- wueiued 10y ago
  But this is already supported by government. There is no willingness to investigate such crimes. Sometimes even state officials covers-up such crimes (Cologne) and it has to be "leaked".
  - ever1 10y ago
    source ?
    - briandear 10y ago
      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cologne-police-ordered-to-remove-word-rape-from-reports-into-new-year-s-eve-sexual-assaults-a6972471.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cologne-polic... http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/06/cologne-police-reveal-cover-new-years-eve-rape-attacks-ordered-government/ http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/06/cologne-police-re... http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-that-covers-up-mass-sex-attacks-by-migrant-men-swedens-record-is-shameful/ http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-that...
      - briandear 10y ago
        Downvoting links to requested sources that support the claim of cover ups in Cologne? Ridiculousness. Would a Guardian link have been upvoted? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/06/tensions-rise-in-germany-over-handling-of-mass-sexual-assaults-in-cologne https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/06/tensions-rise-...

mohsinr 10y ago

This guy reminds me legendary James Randi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Z7KeNCi7g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Z7KeNCi7g

stuaxo 10y ago
Wonder if they know each other, seems like they would have something to talk about.

hourislate 10y ago

This has had to effect the Diocese financially, including the local law enforcement and politicians. I can only imagine that this statue was their poor attempt in monetizing a so called "Miracle". Hence the venomous attack and persecution of a man who's only crime was to expose the Truth. Now these people have seen their revenue stream dry up and are furious. The Vatican itself should investigate the people in the Diocese who have instigated this sinful and hateful act. I would like to see the Pope take this matter up personally and invite this gentleman to Rome. Disclosure: Catholic

narag 10y ago

He should send a complaint to the Pope. I don't believe Francisco would agree with the local catholic representatives and could rebuke them.

bruceb 10y ago

Sometimes when this story comes up what is NOT made clear is that the church complaint is not that he debunked the miracle but that he said they where purposefully profiting off something they knew was false. One could argue they did and it is a distinction without a difference. It is slightly different though than the spin in headlines of this story which makes it sound more outrageous. The headlines often say the legal threat is to do only with him debunking a miracle.

sidcool 10y ago

As an Indian, I feel ashamed.

univalent 10y ago

So stupid. People would literally rather drink toilet water than accept the truth? The Indian police routinely doesn't do anything to protect people that are being attacked (physically or otherwise) by large groups because politicians pressure them to do nothing (to not lose votes).

briandear 10y ago
There's democracy.
- abc_lisper 10y ago
  Damn.

pencildiver 10y ago

James Randi needs to help this guy...