4 ms·

> random-indian-guy Can you pick another stereotype please? It costs you little and is less degrading to us Indian guys and girls who happen to see it. I'm su

by kranner 10y ago

> random-indian-guy Can you pick another stereotype please? It costs you little and is less degrading to us Indian guys and girls who happen to see it. I'm sure there are newbies and/or posers of other nationalities as well on freelance websites.

esac 10y ago
Wouldn't another stereotype be degrading for the other group ?
ebbv 10y ago
It is a stereotype but y'know he may be talking about the reality in this case rather than just a general stereotype. That said it's best to avoid it. Bad developers come in every form of humanity. EDIT: WTF? All I did was try to give OP the benefit of the doubt that maybe he's not a total bigot. I agreed stereotypes are bad and that there are bad developers of every type of person. Someone who thinks that's down vote worthy, please explain yourself. I'd like to know what's so objectionable about that.
- smt88 10y ago
  I didn't down vote, but it's worthy of one because you're defending racism. Racist stereotypes aren't insidious and vile because they have no truth to them. Most stereotypes are based on reality, and some even apply to the majority of the stereotyped group. The problem with stereotypes is that you're lumping people together in possibly negative categories only because of their race. That's scientifically unsound and harmful to the individuals who want to (and should be) considered individually without prejudice based on their race.
  - ebbv 10y ago
    That's the thing though, I'm not defending a stereotype. Re-read my comment. The last thing I do is agree it's best to avoid stereotypes, and that this particular stereotype is wrong anyway because there's bad programmers of all types.
moon_of_moon 10y ago
I think what OP means is this: the tech ecosystem in places like Bangalore is booming more than anywhere else and the good programmers in India have amazing opportunities to make good money or are in career paths that heads to a position earning in a stronger currency, and so its hard to find rock star Indian candidates on these platforms.
- ianhawes 10y ago
  Not sure if you're serious, but I'm fairly certain that is NOT what OP meant.
  - moon_of_moon 10y ago
    Um.. you do realize that the only difference between the Indian engineers at Google or VMWare in California, and some of the the guys working out of India is that the latter didnt do an MS or get a visa sponsored? Take the sharpest Indian dev you know in Palo Alto -- for every one of him, there are like five guys like that back home working on offshore Engineering teams. They are not doing php on Upwork.
    - vthallam 10y ago
      > I find hard to trust elance, upwrok and similar as it's either super-developer-guy or random-indian-guy Still that's not what the OP meant. As i agree tech is booming in Bangalore and all, the reference here is the opposite connotation to the super developer guy. While i don't disagree that there are people who put a WP and make money, avoiding stereotyping is good for everyone.
- tyingq 10y ago
  If you go in not understanding the culture, there's also some traps you can run into. The Indian devs I've worked with are often hesitant to say "no" or "I don't know". You have to be able to work out the difference between an enthusiastic "yes" and a less enthusiastic one. Of course, every culture has it's quirks. I'd avoid the specific reference and stereotype and just say that working with devs from a culture you're not familiar with can be challenging.
projectramo 10y ago
It's not that it is a stereotype that rubbed me wrong, but the addition of "random" and the contrast with "super developer" as if the indian guy is less worthy of time, hiring etc. I do think that there is a quantity:quality issue with many foreign developers on these sites, but the work to go through them has to be easier than going through dozens of people by hand.
sharemywin 10y ago
I found a guy that I was paying $8/hr from India. I make >$40/hr I would spend 1-2/wk writing out specs. I would get 10-20hrs/wk in coding. Could I have done the same code in about 8-15 hours probably(mostly due to communicating what you want to another person), but I was still getting way better bang for my buck than doing it myself. We both had access to bitbucket got the code uploaded every week to test. Were there frustrations absolutely. But, it's hard to beat 5 to 1.
maratd 10y ago
> Can you pick another stereotype please? The sites he mentioned have a 10:1 ratio of Indian developer to non-Indian. How would you describe or phrase that?
- lloyd-christmas 10y ago
  The issue isn't in referring to the demographic of the site, but contrasting it with "either super-developer-guy or random-indian-guy". It implies that the two are mutually exclusive.
  - maratd 10y ago
    They are mutually exclusive on those sites. If you do not have experience on those sites specifically, that would explain your confusion.
    - vthallam 10y ago
      I have experience of being on that site and they are not mutually exclusive. Are there 100 mediocre Indian dev's to 20 excellent Indian dev's? sure. But a straight stereotype in contrast to a super dev is not looking good here.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  That's probably why the stereotype exists, sure. But that doesn't change anything. Throwing around racial/national stereotypes is hurtful.
- infodroid 10y ago
  This is not about demographics or whether there is a factual basis for the stereotype... If I contrasted super-wealthy-nations with African nations, would this be hurtful towards Africans or is it just a reflection of economic statistics? In fact, it is both. Even if we can agree that African countries are on the whole poorer than those on other continents, it is not typically such facts that cause offence, no matter how ugly or inconvenient they are. What is hurtful is the gratuitous use of a racial/national stereotype to enforce a negative association. African nations did not have to be singled out to make the point. There are many other countries struggling with poverty. And it was more accurate for me to say something like "low-income-nations". Yet I chose to single out Africans for the association with poverty rather than use a more general term. This is what many people find insulting about such use of stereotypes.
infodroid 10y ago
> I'm sure there are newbies and/or posers of other nationalities as well on freelance websites. I interpreted this differently. The contrast was with super-developer-guy, who has a really high reputation and corresponding high rate that the op cannot hope to match. The other extreme is with developers with low reputation and a low rate. Not with developers that are "newbies" or "posers".
- Kurtz79 10y ago
  That's my interpretation as well, and it's not much less insulting...

by kranner 10y ago

esac 10y ago

Wouldn't another stereotype be degrading for the other group ?

ebbv 10y ago

It is a stereotype but y'know he may be talking about the reality in this case rather than just a general stereotype. That said it's best to avoid it. Bad developers come in every form of humanity. EDIT: WTF? All I did was try to give OP the benefit of the doubt that maybe he's not a total bigot. I agreed stereotypes are bad and that there are bad developers of every type of person. Someone who thinks that's down vote worthy, please explain yourself. I'd like to know what's so objectionable about that.

smt88 10y ago
I didn't down vote, but it's worthy of one because you're defending racism. Racist stereotypes aren't insidious and vile because they have no truth to them. Most stereotypes are based on reality, and some even apply to the majority of the stereotyped group. The problem with stereotypes is that you're lumping people together in possibly negative categories only because of their race. That's scientifically unsound and harmful to the individuals who want to (and should be) considered individually without prejudice based on their race.
- ebbv 10y ago
  That's the thing though, I'm not defending a stereotype. Re-read my comment. The last thing I do is agree it's best to avoid stereotypes, and that this particular stereotype is wrong anyway because there's bad programmers of all types.

moon_of_moon 10y ago

I think what OP means is this: the tech ecosystem in places like Bangalore is booming more than anywhere else and the good programmers in India have amazing opportunities to make good money or are in career paths that heads to a position earning in a stronger currency, and so its hard to find rock star Indian candidates on these platforms.

ianhawes 10y ago
Not sure if you're serious, but I'm fairly certain that is NOT what OP meant.
- moon_of_moon 10y ago
  Um.. you do realize that the only difference between the Indian engineers at Google or VMWare in California, and some of the the guys working out of India is that the latter didnt do an MS or get a visa sponsored? Take the sharpest Indian dev you know in Palo Alto -- for every one of him, there are like five guys like that back home working on offshore Engineering teams. They are not doing php on Upwork.
  - vthallam 10y ago
    > I find hard to trust elance, upwrok and similar as it's either super-developer-guy or random-indian-guy Still that's not what the OP meant. As i agree tech is booming in Bangalore and all, the reference here is the opposite connotation to the super developer guy. While i don't disagree that there are people who put a WP and make money, avoiding stereotyping is good for everyone.
tyingq 10y ago
If you go in not understanding the culture, there's also some traps you can run into. The Indian devs I've worked with are often hesitant to say "no" or "I don't know". You have to be able to work out the difference between an enthusiastic "yes" and a less enthusiastic one. Of course, every culture has it's quirks. I'd avoid the specific reference and stereotype and just say that working with devs from a culture you're not familiar with can be challenging.

projectramo 10y ago

It's not that it is a stereotype that rubbed me wrong, but the addition of "random" and the contrast with "super developer" as if the indian guy is less worthy of time, hiring etc. I do think that there is a quantity:quality issue with many foreign developers on these sites, but the work to go through them has to be easier than going through dozens of people by hand.

sharemywin 10y ago

I found a guy that I was paying $8/hr from India. I make >$40/hr I would spend 1-2/wk writing out specs. I would get 10-20hrs/wk in coding. Could I have done the same code in about 8-15 hours probably(mostly due to communicating what you want to another person), but I was still getting way better bang for my buck than doing it myself. We both had access to bitbucket got the code uploaded every week to test. Were there frustrations absolutely. But, it's hard to beat 5 to 1.

maratd 10y ago

> Can you pick another stereotype please? The sites he mentioned have a 10:1 ratio of Indian developer to non-Indian. How would you describe or phrase that?

lloyd-christmas 10y ago
The issue isn't in referring to the demographic of the site, but contrasting it with "either super-developer-guy or random-indian-guy". It implies that the two are mutually exclusive.
- maratd 10y ago
  They are mutually exclusive on those sites. If you do not have experience on those sites specifically, that would explain your confusion.
  - vthallam 10y ago
    I have experience of being on that site and they are not mutually exclusive. Are there 100 mediocre Indian dev's to 20 excellent Indian dev's? sure. But a straight stereotype in contrast to a super dev is not looking good here.
JoeAltmaier 10y ago
That's probably why the stereotype exists, sure. But that doesn't change anything. Throwing around racial/national stereotypes is hurtful.
infodroid 10y ago
This is not about demographics or whether there is a factual basis for the stereotype... If I contrasted super-wealthy-nations with African nations, would this be hurtful towards Africans or is it just a reflection of economic statistics? In fact, it is both. Even if we can agree that African countries are on the whole poorer than those on other continents, it is not typically such facts that cause offence, no matter how ugly or inconvenient they are. What is hurtful is the gratuitous use of a racial/national stereotype to enforce a negative association. African nations did not have to be singled out to make the point. There are many other countries struggling with poverty. And it was more accurate for me to say something like "low-income-nations". Yet I chose to single out Africans for the association with poverty rather than use a more general term. This is what many people find insulting about such use of stereotypes.

infodroid 10y ago

> I'm sure there are newbies and/or posers of other nationalities as well on freelance websites. I interpreted this differently. The contrast was with super-developer-guy, who has a really high reputation and corresponding high rate that the op cannot hope to match. The other extreme is with developers with low reputation and a low rate. Not with developers that are "newbies" or "posers".

Kurtz79 10y ago
That's my interpretation as well, and it's not much less insulting...