7 ms·

Wired Documentary on Shenzhen

178 points by etiam 10y ago

surge 10y ago
Thanks for this, hopefully I'll remember to watch the next part.
hugs 10y ago
I love the easter egg at 3:13. ("ALL PROPRIETARY AND NO OPEN SOURCE MAKES INNOVATION A SLOW PROCESS") The text is upside down in the video, so it's easy to miss. But on that note of open source vs proprietary, I'm building a business on open source hardware, yet I have a hard time proving to others (especially other startup founders) that open hardware is the way to go. They fear that their designs will get cloned and they'll get blown out of the water (implicitly at a lower cost by someone in Shenzhen). They want to ensure they can recoup their R&D costs. My point is that if you make a successful product, you're going to get cloned anyway. The counter-point is usually "But why make it any easier for them to clone you?"
- durkie 10y ago
  What are you making? We went through the same process with the now-defunct-and-sued-by-patent-troll Comingle, trying to make open source sex toys. We'd get all those same questions over and over...
  - hugs 10y ago
    I'm a making a robot for physical testing of devices (phones, tablets, touchscreens, wearables, etc.). I learned tons of lessons and had success in the open source software world over the years (I started the Selenium project), and am now seeing how well those lessons transfer to the hardware world. For now, we make all our custom parts in-house with a bunch of 3D printers and CNC mills.
- fpvracing 10y ago
  > My point is that if you make a successful product, you're going to get cloned anyway. If you're going to get cloned either way, how will you make selling your hardware a sustainable business? I love hardware (robotics, incidentally) but I'm so hesitant to release a hardware product because of the inevitability and futility of competing against cheaper clones. I've seen it happen again and again in the nascent world of drone racing - somebody comes up with an innovative new design and there's a clone on Banggood three weeks later. Then most people just buy the clone. I don't see how it can be sustainable.
  - hugs 10y ago
    In the short to medium-term, it's a hybrid product+consulting business model with consulting gigs to add features, custom sizes, or integrated with specific testing frameworks. Long term, competition is based on brand, build quality, distribution, ISV partnerships, and the ability to keep innovating. Also, it's a B2B product, so success or failure is predominantly driven by the quality of the sales team and their process as much as anything else.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    I guess it comes down to that age old reputation thing. Get the brand out, get it known for quality and service, and stick with it.
kennell 10y ago
Looking for a english speaking contact in Shenzen, contact info is in my profile, hit me up.
- manigandham 10y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11866581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11866581
- unixhero 10y ago
  mevatne@hotmail.com
chillacy 10y ago
Seems like the success of shenzen as a big startup place will also depend on to what degree IoT takes off, since custom hardware is so essential to that. Like the video says, the rest of us just use generic hardware where the only metrics are performance and maybe power consumption. Imagine how different bay area startups would be if VC backed startups built robotic arms and legs instead of one-click deploy Rails PaaS infrastructure.
- Taniwha 10y ago
  The thing to realise it's already that, essentially it's the place you go if you win at Kickstarter - if you went for $10k and got $1M - there's already a western hardware hacker community regularly rotating through the city. Of course that's not exactly the traditional startup, these are often people bootstrapping themselves without a VC sugar daddy - not needing to have an exit story with 7 0s
- walrus01 10y ago
  this is a puff piece documentary, but take a look at the scale of the consumer electrical goods manufacturing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlSHo61nRWw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlSHo61nRWw I think what we will see is cheap ($5-10 max) IOT-like modules being integrated into all sorts of random consumer electrical goods. Whether your blender needs to speak bluetooth 4.0 and associate to your home wifi AP is sort of a moot point, at some point in time the modules will get so cheap that they're integrated by default into any device that has electrical power. Whether you need it or not. How useful it'll be is another question. An IOT thing with a relay in every lamp?
FreedomToCreate 10y ago
I worked extensively in Shenzhen (though it was a breath of fresh air to get back to the states), and it is a great ecosystem but I do want to address something not covered in the documentary. Their are a lot of things you need to be careful about before venturing into the wild west of electronic parts that is shenzhen. First, knowing some Mandarin or having a native speaker with you is definitely a requirement. Most big companies and vendors have english speakers working for them, but thats the exception. The work mentality there is to get as much done as quickly as possible. Short cuts are the norm, which is frowned upon in North America, and you have to watch your suppliers and make sure they don't screw you over (ex. replace your requested part with a similar one or get you a cheaper part without checking with you and put the difference back in their own pocket). This even happens in the prototyping stage. And as cheap as building stuff is there, living is still comparable to most US cities when it comes to good housing (ex. Austin, Portland, Denver). With all that said, things move crazy fast. You put a circuit board order in on Monday and its on your desk on Wednesday.
- justicezyx 10y ago
  It takes 2 days. I was expecting same day delivery. XD
  - SexyCyborg 10y ago
    I've gotten components I ordered on TaoBao delivered same day. 12 hours is pretty common.
  - tonster 10y ago
    There are many 24hr turn PCB fab houses too. Usually costs an extra 150-200RMB for that service, which by western standards is still an absolute steal.
- hrrsn 10y ago
  > replace your requested part with a similar one or get you a cheaper part without checking with you and put the difference back in their own pocket This even happened to Bunnie (featured in the video) http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=1022 http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=1022
mads 10y ago
I have been in Shenzhen for 5 years and know my way around. I am available, if anyone has any questions about this place or if someone needs a hand here.
- sounds 10y ago
  Have you (or anyone reading this) considered selling your services as a contractor / consultant? In particular, I imagine a web forum where you can discuss what's going on in Shenzhen with interested people from the US, in English. You can develop jobs and even sub-contract work all using this forum. Of course, that's just an idea. How would you do it? I would be very interested in such a thing.
  - shenzhenconsult 10y ago
    This is something I've been thinking about for a while and your comment has motivated me to follow through. I'm not based in Shenzhen but like you I'm very interested in talking to and potentially working with people who are. If anyone else is interested in participating in such a forum please email admin@shenzhenconsulting.com and I'll keep you updated.
    - wzy 10y ago
      That quickness with domain purchase. Wow!
      - walrus01 10y ago
        well, .com domains are only like $10, assuming you already have your own DNS and httpd, it's not a bad impulse purchase for 1 year considering I see people regularly spend $6 on a fancy coffee drink.
      - shenzhenconsult 10y ago
        I had the domain registered in around two minutes. It took me a few more minutes to set up the Google apps account, Twitter and Slack channel :P
SexyCyborg 10y ago
Shenzhen native, local Maker here. All in all the video is pretty accurate. Like most of these videos they focus on the usual semi-official tourist stops- Huaqiangqei, local accelerators, etc. You never see the Huawei or TenCent R&D departments, or anyplace that the actual real day-to-day innovation usually happens because those are strictly no-cameras and very much off limits to forigners. If anyone wants a better look around the HCB electronic markets I shot about an hour of 360º video there last week, it's on YouTube if you search.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  Well well well, didn't expect you to show up on HN. Got any new projects going on?
- ibn 10y ago
  Could you comment on if, as an American engineer, getting to know Shenzhen and learning Mandarin would be worth doing as valuable business skills?
  - SexyCyborg 10y ago
    You would need really, really good Mandarin in order to manufacture something without a translator. In conversation I find culture is more of a problem than language. We can always make it clear you will get the part on Tuesday. What Westerners can't understand is why that really does not mean that you will get the part on Tuesday But everyone who lives here should study enough so they can get around and take care of themselves.
    - iNerdier 10y ago
      What does it mean? I'm curious as to what the subtext of something like that really is. Will it also mean that local manufacturers there would be more likely to try and pass off something non-genuine to westerners?
      - SexyCyborg 10y ago

178 points by etiam 10y ago

surge 10y ago

Thanks for this, hopefully I'll remember to watch the next part.

hugs 10y ago

I love the easter egg at 3:13. ("ALL PROPRIETARY AND NO OPEN SOURCE MAKES INNOVATION A SLOW PROCESS") The text is upside down in the video, so it's easy to miss. But on that note of open source vs proprietary, I'm building a business on open source hardware, yet I have a hard time proving to others (especially other startup founders) that open hardware is the way to go. They fear that their designs will get cloned and they'll get blown out of the water (implicitly at a lower cost by someone in Shenzhen). They want to ensure they can recoup their R&D costs. My point is that if you make a successful product, you're going to get cloned anyway. The counter-point is usually "But why make it any easier for them to clone you?"

durkie 10y ago
What are you making? We went through the same process with the now-defunct-and-sued-by-patent-troll Comingle, trying to make open source sex toys. We'd get all those same questions over and over...
- hugs 10y ago
  I'm a making a robot for physical testing of devices (phones, tablets, touchscreens, wearables, etc.). I learned tons of lessons and had success in the open source software world over the years (I started the Selenium project), and am now seeing how well those lessons transfer to the hardware world. For now, we make all our custom parts in-house with a bunch of 3D printers and CNC mills.
fpvracing 10y ago
> My point is that if you make a successful product, you're going to get cloned anyway. If you're going to get cloned either way, how will you make selling your hardware a sustainable business? I love hardware (robotics, incidentally) but I'm so hesitant to release a hardware product because of the inevitability and futility of competing against cheaper clones. I've seen it happen again and again in the nascent world of drone racing - somebody comes up with an innovative new design and there's a clone on Banggood three weeks later. Then most people just buy the clone. I don't see how it can be sustainable.
- hugs 10y ago
  In the short to medium-term, it's a hybrid product+consulting business model with consulting gigs to add features, custom sizes, or integrated with specific testing frameworks. Long term, competition is based on brand, build quality, distribution, ISV partnerships, and the ability to keep innovating. Also, it's a B2B product, so success or failure is predominantly driven by the quality of the sales team and their process as much as anything else.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  I guess it comes down to that age old reputation thing. Get the brand out, get it known for quality and service, and stick with it.

kennell 10y ago

Looking for a english speaking contact in Shenzen, contact info is in my profile, hit me up.

manigandham 10y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11866581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11866581
unixhero 10y ago
mevatne@hotmail.com

chillacy 10y ago

Seems like the success of shenzen as a big startup place will also depend on to what degree IoT takes off, since custom hardware is so essential to that. Like the video says, the rest of us just use generic hardware where the only metrics are performance and maybe power consumption. Imagine how different bay area startups would be if VC backed startups built robotic arms and legs instead of one-click deploy Rails PaaS infrastructure.

Taniwha 10y ago
The thing to realise it's already that, essentially it's the place you go if you win at Kickstarter - if you went for $10k and got $1M - there's already a western hardware hacker community regularly rotating through the city. Of course that's not exactly the traditional startup, these are often people bootstrapping themselves without a VC sugar daddy - not needing to have an exit story with 7 0s
walrus01 10y ago
this is a puff piece documentary, but take a look at the scale of the consumer electrical goods manufacturing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlSHo61nRWw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlSHo61nRWw I think what we will see is cheap ($5-10 max) IOT-like modules being integrated into all sorts of random consumer electrical goods. Whether your blender needs to speak bluetooth 4.0 and associate to your home wifi AP is sort of a moot point, at some point in time the modules will get so cheap that they're integrated by default into any device that has electrical power. Whether you need it or not. How useful it'll be is another question. An IOT thing with a relay in every lamp?

FreedomToCreate 10y ago

I worked extensively in Shenzhen (though it was a breath of fresh air to get back to the states), and it is a great ecosystem but I do want to address something not covered in the documentary. Their are a lot of things you need to be careful about before venturing into the wild west of electronic parts that is shenzhen. First, knowing some Mandarin or having a native speaker with you is definitely a requirement. Most big companies and vendors have english speakers working for them, but thats the exception. The work mentality there is to get as much done as quickly as possible. Short cuts are the norm, which is frowned upon in North America, and you have to watch your suppliers and make sure they don't screw you over (ex. replace your requested part with a similar one or get you a cheaper part without checking with you and put the difference back in their own pocket). This even happens in the prototyping stage. And as cheap as building stuff is there, living is still comparable to most US cities when it comes to good housing (ex. Austin, Portland, Denver). With all that said, things move crazy fast. You put a circuit board order in on Monday and its on your desk on Wednesday.

justicezyx 10y ago
It takes 2 days. I was expecting same day delivery. XD
- SexyCyborg 10y ago
  I've gotten components I ordered on TaoBao delivered same day. 12 hours is pretty common.
- tonster 10y ago
  There are many 24hr turn PCB fab houses too. Usually costs an extra 150-200RMB for that service, which by western standards is still an absolute steal.
hrrsn 10y ago
> replace your requested part with a similar one or get you a cheaper part without checking with you and put the difference back in their own pocket This even happened to Bunnie (featured in the video) http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=1022 http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=1022

mads 10y ago

I have been in Shenzhen for 5 years and know my way around. I am available, if anyone has any questions about this place or if someone needs a hand here.

sounds 10y ago
Have you (or anyone reading this) considered selling your services as a contractor / consultant? In particular, I imagine a web forum where you can discuss what's going on in Shenzhen with interested people from the US, in English. You can develop jobs and even sub-contract work all using this forum. Of course, that's just an idea. How would you do it? I would be very interested in such a thing.
- shenzhenconsult 10y ago
  This is something I've been thinking about for a while and your comment has motivated me to follow through. I'm not based in Shenzhen but like you I'm very interested in talking to and potentially working with people who are. If anyone else is interested in participating in such a forum please email admin@shenzhenconsulting.com and I'll keep you updated.
  - wzy 10y ago
    That quickness with domain purchase. Wow!
    - walrus01 10y ago
      well, .com domains are only like $10, assuming you already have your own DNS and httpd, it's not a bad impulse purchase for 1 year considering I see people regularly spend $6 on a fancy coffee drink.
    - shenzhenconsult 10y ago
      I had the domain registered in around two minutes. It took me a few more minutes to set up the Google apps account, Twitter and Slack channel :P

SexyCyborg 10y ago

Shenzhen native, local Maker here. All in all the video is pretty accurate. Like most of these videos they focus on the usual semi-official tourist stops- Huaqiangqei, local accelerators, etc. You never see the Huawei or TenCent R&D departments, or anyplace that the actual real day-to-day innovation usually happens because those are strictly no-cameras and very much off limits to forigners. If anyone wants a better look around the HCB electronic markets I shot about an hour of 360º video there last week, it's on YouTube if you search.

digi_owl 10y ago
Well well well, didn't expect you to show up on HN. Got any new projects going on?
ibn 10y ago
Could you comment on if, as an American engineer, getting to know Shenzhen and learning Mandarin would be worth doing as valuable business skills?
- SexyCyborg 10y ago
  You would need really, really good Mandarin in order to manufacture something without a translator. In conversation I find culture is more of a problem than language. We can always make it clear you will get the part on Tuesday. What Westerners can't understand is why that really does not mean that you will get the part on Tuesday But everyone who lives here should study enough so they can get around and take care of themselves.
  - iNerdier 10y ago
    What does it mean? I'm curious as to what the subtext of something like that really is. Will it also mean that local manufacturers there would be more likely to try and pass off something non-genuine to westerners?
    - SexyCyborg 10y ago