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> Ironically movements like the BDS actually cause Palestinians who work for Israeli companies to loose their jobs. This argument was often made against anti-a

> Ironically movements like the BDS actually cause Palestinians who work for Israeli companies to loose their jobs. This argument was often made against anti-apartheid sanctions on South Africa. The answer was that it was for the oppressed population to decide.

Papirola 10y ago
whose answer?
- mr_tyzic 10y ago
  The answer of the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa, which few (in the West at least) would now argue was wrong.
amitport 10y ago
1 - I doubt anybody asked the Hamas-oppressed population of Gaza. When they'll want to boycott their employers they'll just quit their jobs. 2 - The situation is very different from the south-African "apartheid". Gaza is a sovereign territory with an hostile religious fanatic government that forced Egypt and Israel to maintain highly secured borders. The Israeli law does not discriminate its citizens and there are Palestinian parliament members and judges. 3 - By employing both Israelis and Palestinians, companies actually contribute more to peace and equality than BDS ever will.
- bhouston 10y ago
  > The situation is very different from the south-African "apartheid". Gaza is a sovereign territory with an hostile religious fanatic government that forced Egypt and Israel to maintain highly secured borders. The Israeli law does not discriminate its citizens and there are Palestinian parliament members and judges. One of the most comprehensive sources on the Israel apartheid comparison is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analo... > By employing both Israelis and Palestinians, companies actually contribute more to peace and equality than BDS ever will. A bunch of human rights organizations have evidence that the Palestinians are exploited as a cheap labor that is outside of Israeli labor protections: https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/04/13/ripe-abuse/palestinian-child-labor-israeli-agricultural-settlements-west-bank https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/04/13/ripe-abuse/palestinian... It would be cool if Israeli companies adopted somethign akin to the Sullivan principles which were adopted by ethical South African companies during the apartheid era: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_principles Then you know they are not just using Palestinian labor for cost saving reasons, but the companies are showing support and are working towards breaking down the system of inequality that is currently in place there.
  - kirillkh 10y ago
    Writing as an Israeli. There is no inequality inherent in the system. The fact that Palestinian nationals (who are not Israeli citizens) are mostly employed in cheap jobs is no different from Filipinos or Chinese being employed in cheap jobs abroad. Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Jews, in everything from education to employment. They even get preferential acceptance to universities (lower acceptance requirements). Claiming there is an apartheid in Israel is simply FUD.
    - meric 10y ago
      I live in Australia where Filipinos and Chinese work in 'Cheap jobs' paying $19 an hour, the standard minimum wage. The government busted a chain of convenience stores for under paying people on student visas who worked more than their limit of 20 hours. The students were given immunity against deportation for admitting they worked more than their limit, so they can come out and complain, so that the government can force the convenience store chain to pay reparations to those student workers. If this was Israel, they'd blame they exceeded their limit, deported them and blamed them for working too much and accepting less than minimum wage, resulting in no compensation paid out. So no, you don't get to say the rest of the world do the same as Israel. To do so is FUD. Israel is one of a kind. I understand why Israel had always had a defensive posture and thinking. Lots of shit happened in the past. But today? Israel is strong, and it is doing too much to keep the Gazans down. What other country blows up 20000 houses and slaughtered hundreds of civilians in response to 2 terrorist deaths?
      - kirillkh 10y ago
        "If this was Israel, they'd blame they exceeded their limit, deported them and blamed them for working too much and accepting less than minimum wage, resulting in no compensation paid out." -- and you assume all that because?.. You provided zero facts to substitute your anti-Israeli claims, but you still feel comfortable making them. This is exactly the kind of FUD I've been talking about. It started as a campaign of lies by the Palestinian media and has since spread to the liberal circles around Europe and the world. All based on false assumptions, lack of knowledge of history and actual situation on the ground. I suggest you watch this video before making any further claims: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL8ANySuSuk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL8ANySuSuk But you know what the worst part is? It's that you feel you don't even need any proof of alleged horrible things that Israel does, because you are so confident that "Israel is one of a kind" in the worst sense. This, gentlemen, is the modern kind of antisemitism.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  >3 - By employing both Israelis and Palestinians, companies actually contribute more to peace and equality than BDS ever will. Exploiting an occupied population does nothing to contribute to peace. It would be better for Israeli companies to leave Palestinians alone as a labor force and employ Israelis.
golergka 10y ago
This answer doesn't make any sense: people decided to go work for israeli companies, but pressure of activists from US and Europe made them lose their jobs.
- jrochkind1 10y ago
  Please provide an example of a software engineer living in Gaza that was working for an Israeli company but lost their job because of pressure from US and European activists. I would be pretty surprised if you can find even one example. Heck, I'd be surprised if you can even find an example of a software engineer living in Gaza that has ever worked for an Israeli company at all. Or, perhaps, an example of someone living in Gaza attending an Israeli university (they can't).
  - golergka 10y ago
    Parent comment that changed conversation to this topic clearly didn't limit the subject only to software engineers — neither did I. > Or, perhaps, an example of someone living in Gaza attending an Israeli university (they can't). Yes — Gaza citizens wanted independence, and they got it, with everything that goes along. I'm pretty sure that there are PA citizens learning in israeli universities though, especially Ariel.
    - jrochkind1 10y ago
      > I'm pretty sure that there are PA citizens learning in israeli universities though, especially Ariel. Ariel is probably the worst example you could have chosen. Palestinian residents of the West Bank are not allowed to enter the settlement of Ariel that Ariel University is in, so that seems unlikely. I'm pretty sure there are zero PA citizens enrolled at Ariel. I would not be surprised if there are zero PA citizens enrolled at any Israeli universities, I'm not 'pretty sure' there are zero, but pretty sure there are very very few if any, and possibly zero or nearly so. (see for example http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2009/05/28/banning-palestinian-students-from-israeli-universities/ http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2009/05/28/banning-palesti... http://gisha.org/press/1033 http://gisha.org/press/1033 ) The suggestion that Gaza residents have obtained "everything that goes along with independence" is too ridiculous to say much more about.

Papirola 10y ago

whose answer?

mr_tyzic 10y ago
The answer of the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa, which few (in the West at least) would now argue was wrong.

amitport 10y ago

1 - I doubt anybody asked the Hamas-oppressed population of Gaza. When they'll want to boycott their employers they'll just quit their jobs. 2 - The situation is very different from the south-African "apartheid". Gaza is a sovereign territory with an hostile religious fanatic government that forced Egypt and Israel to maintain highly secured borders. The Israeli law does not discriminate its citizens and there are Palestinian parliament members and judges. 3 - By employing both Israelis and Palestinians, companies actually contribute more to peace and equality than BDS ever will.

bhouston 10y ago
> The situation is very different from the south-African "apartheid". Gaza is a sovereign territory with an hostile religious fanatic government that forced Egypt and Israel to maintain highly secured borders. The Israeli law does not discriminate its citizens and there are Palestinian parliament members and judges. One of the most comprehensive sources on the Israel apartheid comparison is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analo... > By employing both Israelis and Palestinians, companies actually contribute more to peace and equality than BDS ever will. A bunch of human rights organizations have evidence that the Palestinians are exploited as a cheap labor that is outside of Israeli labor protections: https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/04/13/ripe-abuse/palestinian-child-labor-israeli-agricultural-settlements-west-bank https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/04/13/ripe-abuse/palestinian... It would be cool if Israeli companies adopted somethign akin to the Sullivan principles which were adopted by ethical South African companies during the apartheid era: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_principles Then you know they are not just using Palestinian labor for cost saving reasons, but the companies are showing support and are working towards breaking down the system of inequality that is currently in place there.
- kirillkh 10y ago
  Writing as an Israeli. There is no inequality inherent in the system. The fact that Palestinian nationals (who are not Israeli citizens) are mostly employed in cheap jobs is no different from Filipinos or Chinese being employed in cheap jobs abroad. Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Jews, in everything from education to employment. They even get preferential acceptance to universities (lower acceptance requirements). Claiming there is an apartheid in Israel is simply FUD.
  - meric 10y ago
    I live in Australia where Filipinos and Chinese work in 'Cheap jobs' paying $19 an hour, the standard minimum wage. The government busted a chain of convenience stores for under paying people on student visas who worked more than their limit of 20 hours. The students were given immunity against deportation for admitting they worked more than their limit, so they can come out and complain, so that the government can force the convenience store chain to pay reparations to those student workers. If this was Israel, they'd blame they exceeded their limit, deported them and blamed them for working too much and accepting less than minimum wage, resulting in no compensation paid out. So no, you don't get to say the rest of the world do the same as Israel. To do so is FUD. Israel is one of a kind. I understand why Israel had always had a defensive posture and thinking. Lots of shit happened in the past. But today? Israel is strong, and it is doing too much to keep the Gazans down. What other country blows up 20000 houses and slaughtered hundreds of civilians in response to 2 terrorist deaths?
    - kirillkh 10y ago
      "If this was Israel, they'd blame they exceeded their limit, deported them and blamed them for working too much and accepting less than minimum wage, resulting in no compensation paid out." -- and you assume all that because?.. You provided zero facts to substitute your anti-Israeli claims, but you still feel comfortable making them. This is exactly the kind of FUD I've been talking about. It started as a campaign of lies by the Palestinian media and has since spread to the liberal circles around Europe and the world. All based on false assumptions, lack of knowledge of history and actual situation on the ground. I suggest you watch this video before making any further claims: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL8ANySuSuk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL8ANySuSuk But you know what the worst part is? It's that you feel you don't even need any proof of alleged horrible things that Israel does, because you are so confident that "Israel is one of a kind" in the worst sense. This, gentlemen, is the modern kind of antisemitism.
eli_gottlieb 10y ago
>3 - By employing both Israelis and Palestinians, companies actually contribute more to peace and equality than BDS ever will. Exploiting an occupied population does nothing to contribute to peace. It would be better for Israeli companies to leave Palestinians alone as a labor force and employ Israelis.

golergka 10y ago

This answer doesn't make any sense: people decided to go work for israeli companies, but pressure of activists from US and Europe made them lose their jobs.

jrochkind1 10y ago
Please provide an example of a software engineer living in Gaza that was working for an Israeli company but lost their job because of pressure from US and European activists. I would be pretty surprised if you can find even one example. Heck, I'd be surprised if you can even find an example of a software engineer living in Gaza that has ever worked for an Israeli company at all. Or, perhaps, an example of someone living in Gaza attending an Israeli university (they can't).
- golergka 10y ago
  Parent comment that changed conversation to this topic clearly didn't limit the subject only to software engineers — neither did I. > Or, perhaps, an example of someone living in Gaza attending an Israeli university (they can't). Yes — Gaza citizens wanted independence, and they got it, with everything that goes along. I'm pretty sure that there are PA citizens learning in israeli universities though, especially Ariel.
  - jrochkind1 10y ago
    > I'm pretty sure that there are PA citizens learning in israeli universities though, especially Ariel. Ariel is probably the worst example you could have chosen. Palestinian residents of the West Bank are not allowed to enter the settlement of Ariel that Ariel University is in, so that seems unlikely. I'm pretty sure there are zero PA citizens enrolled at Ariel. I would not be surprised if there are zero PA citizens enrolled at any Israeli universities, I'm not 'pretty sure' there are zero, but pretty sure there are very very few if any, and possibly zero or nearly so. (see for example http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2009/05/28/banning-palestinian-students-from-israeli-universities/ http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2009/05/28/banning-palesti... http://gisha.org/press/1033 http://gisha.org/press/1033 ) The suggestion that Gaza residents have obtained "everything that goes along with independence" is too ridiculous to say much more about.