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Well, I mentioned Sufism (which doesn't renounce all violence per se -- most religions don't -- but has a more mystical interpretation that makes it less prone

Well, I mentioned Sufism (which doesn't renounce all violence per se -- most religions don't -- but has a more mystical interpretation that makes it less prone to fundamentalist Islam style jihad), and there's also the Mouride. Of course, you can say that all of these combined is a low percentage of the dogma. I still am not sure where this line of reasoning goes though. We can spin lots of circles trying to prove one ancient very violent text is more violent in nature than the other. For the record, I would agree that the Quran "out-violences" the Old Testament. (I disagree that the Quran is not multi-faceted though). And yet, I am not sure that this matters much. I could also say that Buddhism is way more pacifist then either Christianity or Islam. Yet I can find examples of Buddhist terrorism. I can also describe the origins of Christianity as an apocalyptic cult (the "great tribulation" being a key cornerstone of that faith). Yet it doesn't appear to inspire ISIS style violence these days. As a general rule I am personally wary of linking violence in media very directly to external violence. I know in the United States all sorts of people try to link our often violent entertainment media to various other events (from school shootings to aggressive behavior). But the more in depth studies seem to only indicate casual correlation... or not even that. So sure, the text of the Quran is pretty violent, some conquer your enemies stuff, very Old Testament. The answer is, yes, and? If you're trying to directly link the Quran to terrorism (versus what I more suspect, terrorists using the Quran for their own ends), that's a pretty tall accusation. 1.6 billion people follow this book after all. Most of the 1.6 billion people are not terrorists or even very violent. There was a time when the "status" of Islam and Christianity was reversed, after all. From roughly 800 AD to 1300 AD, Islam experienced its "Golden Age"; certainly there was some military activity then, but the sections encouraging wisdom were also in play (resulting in many mathematical and scientific advances). It was the Abbasid caliphate leaders that encouraged this. The Christian world was meanwhile stuck in the Middle Ages, whose popes used Biblical dogma to justify the Crusades. Likewise today, I see far more connection between politics and Islamic terrorism versus the Quran itself and Islamic terrorism. If a heck of a lot of Islam followers do have a jihadist dominant interpretation of the Quran, I would blame that entirely on religious and political leaders that actually emphasize the jihadist portions. Not the book. This is religion after all. After all, some big political positions in religion arise that have nothing to do with holy texts at all. :)

acqq 10y ago
> From roughly 800 AD to 1300 AD, Islam experienced its "Golden Age" The so-called "golden age" was the result of occupying the new lands and taking over the control over the non-Muslim knowledge, accumulated through the thousands of years in these areas by non-Muslims. And the reason that age ended was the more fundamentalistic enforcement of the rules from the holy texts. No more science, everything is in the holy books. What can be learned from this then? Also, what's about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia How can you say that the laws are anything but serious reading the holy texts, as the whole article documents? Or that it's the invention of just a land or two? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_sharia_law_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_sharia_law_by_c... Note also the section on the "Abrogation." The violent passages are chronologically later and overrule the older less violent.
- soundwave106 10y ago
  Honestly it was not just conquest (though that certainly spurred a lot); there was some organic internal growth as well (the most well known of course being algebra). But, yes, I do think there are some things that can be learned, of course: A) Sharing knowledge is by and large a good thing (some of the "Golden Age" is probably a result of having a large stable empire with not as much internal faction fighting, a common language (Arabic), and all those influences, from the Greeks to the Egyptians to the Chinese). B) A society that turns away from rationality, and turns towards anti-rationalist fundamentalist religious dogma, is a society that's in trouble.
  - acqq 10y ago
    > there was some organic internal growth as well (the most well known of course being algebra) The "Arabic numerals" were actually taken from India, and in that areas the astronomy, using complex calculations was practiced many centuries before, also using better numerals (positional, using letters, just like programmers use A-F in hex today) than the Roman ones which weren't practical. But yes, once that huge knowledge was taken over, there was some period of some improvements. But it ended more than 750 years ago, never to return, as the core of the religion itself actually never supported it. The developments during the following 750 years and the state of human rights in countries that claim to be based on the Islamic law are certainly illustrative and shouldn't be ignored. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests_on_the_Indian_subcontinent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests_on_the_Indian... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_India "An estimate of the number of people killed, based on the Muslim chronicles and demographic calculations, was done by K.S. Lal in his book Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India, who claimed that between 1000 CE and 1500 CE, the population of Hindus decreased by 80 million." To compare, the total population of the world was at that time less than 550 million. http://www.census.gov/population/international/data/worldpop/table_history.php http://www.census.gov/population/international/data/worldpop...

acqq 10y ago

> From roughly 800 AD to 1300 AD, Islam experienced its "Golden Age" The so-called "golden age" was the result of occupying the new lands and taking over the control over the non-Muslim knowledge, accumulated through the thousands of years in these areas by non-Muslims. And the reason that age ended was the more fundamentalistic enforcement of the rules from the holy texts. No more science, everything is in the holy books. What can be learned from this then? Also, what's about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia How can you say that the laws are anything but serious reading the holy texts, as the whole article documents? Or that it's the invention of just a land or two? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_sharia_law_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_sharia_law_by_c... Note also the section on the "Abrogation." The violent passages are chronologically later and overrule the older less violent.

soundwave106 10y ago
Honestly it was not just conquest (though that certainly spurred a lot); there was some organic internal growth as well (the most well known of course being algebra). But, yes, I do think there are some things that can be learned, of course: A) Sharing knowledge is by and large a good thing (some of the "Golden Age" is probably a result of having a large stable empire with not as much internal faction fighting, a common language (Arabic), and all those influences, from the Greeks to the Egyptians to the Chinese). B) A society that turns away from rationality, and turns towards anti-rationalist fundamentalist religious dogma, is a society that's in trouble.
- acqq 10y ago
  > there was some organic internal growth as well (the most well known of course being algebra) The "Arabic numerals" were actually taken from India, and in that areas the astronomy, using complex calculations was practiced many centuries before, also using better numerals (positional, using letters, just like programmers use A-F in hex today) than the Roman ones which weren't practical. But yes, once that huge knowledge was taken over, there was some period of some improvements. But it ended more than 750 years ago, never to return, as the core of the religion itself actually never supported it. The developments during the following 750 years and the state of human rights in countries that claim to be based on the Islamic law are certainly illustrative and shouldn't be ignored. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests_on_the_Indian_subcontinent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests_on_the_Indian... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_India "An estimate of the number of people killed, based on the Muslim chronicles and demographic calculations, was done by K.S. Lal in his book Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India, who claimed that between 1000 CE and 1500 CE, the population of Hindus decreased by 80 million." To compare, the total population of the world was at that time less than 550 million. http://www.census.gov/population/international/data/worldpop/table_history.php http://www.census.gov/population/international/data/worldpop...