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> Yes I think a artificial neural net feels pain, perhaps even the same way we do (if it has the right algorithm, any way.) We can't even define the feeling of

> Yes I think a artificial neural net feels pain, perhaps even the same way we do (if it has the right algorithm, any way.) We can't even define the feeling of pain, let alone decide whether a neural net feels it. > If you shock it, it will experience a strong desire to avoid being shocked again. If you give it other instincts like "cry when experiencing a negative reward" and "focus all your attention on the source of pain to avoid distraction", etc, it starts to look much more human like too. Why would it experience anything? Why would a computer with specific values in its registers feel pain? Would I cause real pain by setting the CPU registers and memory into a specific state?

Houshalter 10y ago
>We can't even define the feeling of pain, let alone decide whether a neural net feels it. I never claimed there was an agreed on definition. But I think this is closer to one. >Why would a computer with specific values in its registers feel pain? Would I cause real pain by setting the CPU registers and memory into a specific state? Yes, obviously. The neural net would register your actions as an extremely negative experience, and do everything in it's power to get you to stop. How is that different than torturing a person?
- aninhumer 10y ago
  The experience of pain is not the same thing as reaction to pain. Humans and neural nets both display the latter, but the only instance of the former we can observe is in oneself. It's possible neural nets do experience pain, but we have no way of knowing that (any more than we do of knowing that other humans do).
  - Houshalter 10y ago
    >The experience of pain is not the same thing as reaction to pain. I'm claiming the neural net does experience pain. It's not merely a reaction, like screaming "ow!" It's actually experiencing it. Internally, the neural net would experience directing its attention at the source of the pain, a deep desire to avoid it, and everything else that humans do. >It's possible neural nets do experience pain, but we have no way of knowing that (any more than we do of knowing that other humans do). That's just silly. Clearly pain, like everything else, must be a real physical thing that exists and can be observed. If it's a real process that is casually connected to us and the universe, that is. If it's not real or causally connected to us, then how can it exist or be relevant?
- coldtea 10y ago
  >The neural net would register your actions as an extremely negative experience, and do everything in it's power to get you to stop. Actually the neural net would just adjust some weights, i.e. make some calculations. No pain and no conscious "avoiding with everything in its power" either. Or if there is, the burden on proof is on you.
  - Houshalter 10y ago
    >Actually the neural net would just adjust some weights, i.e. make some calculations. No pain and no conscious "avoiding with everything in its power" either. Yes and your brain does the exact same thing. If you are claiming the brain does magical non physical, non logical things, then the burden of proof is on you.
- catawbasam 10y ago
  One difference is that you wouldn't be morally condemned, and perhaps imprisoned, for setting CPU registers to a state the neural net was programmed to avoid. Also, the neural net evolves to meet an objective -- a purpose -- bestowed upon it by an outside power. Do you believe this is true of humans too?
  - Houshalter 10y ago
    >One difference is that you wouldn't be morally condemned, and perhaps imprisoned, for setting CPU registers to a state the neural net was programmed to avoid. Of course you should be though. At least if we are asserting the neural net was advanced enough to be sufficiently human like. Torturing simulations of humans is no different than torturing actual humans. >Also, the neural net evolves to meet an objective -- a purpose -- bestowed upon it by an outside power. Do you believe this is true of humans too? The neural net serves humans the same way humans serve evolution.
- RivieraKid 10y ago
  > I never claimed there was an agreed on definition. But I think this is closer to one. If there's ever a "definition", it would be something like - pain is what I feel when this neuron gets activated. Not really a definition though. > Yes, obviously. The neural net would register your actions as an extremely negative experience, and do everything in it's power to get you to stop. How is that different than torturing a person? You could also create an analog computer that uses the position of pieces of sand instead of a memory. Does positioning the sand in a specific way cause pain? In fact, there are pretty much infinitely many ways you could encode the memory in sand positions (or atom or molecule positions). So are there infinitely many feelings of pain and joy around us?
  - Houshalter 10y ago
    >If there's ever a "definition", it would be something like - pain is what I feel when this neuron gets activated. Not really a definition though. I would define it more like shocking a neural net with negative reward. A specific kind of learning process that learns to avoid a specific kind of situation, that's pain. >Does positioning the sand in a specific way cause pain? Of course not, because sand isn't a computer. The sand isn't doing any computation. It's static and unchanging. But if you actually made a computer out of sand, and you ran it, then yes, running the computer would be causing pain.

Houshalter 10y ago

>We can't even define the feeling of pain, let alone decide whether a neural net feels it. I never claimed there was an agreed on definition. But I think this is closer to one. >Why would a computer with specific values in its registers feel pain? Would I cause real pain by setting the CPU registers and memory into a specific state? Yes, obviously. The neural net would register your actions as an extremely negative experience, and do everything in it's power to get you to stop. How is that different than torturing a person?

aninhumer 10y ago
The experience of pain is not the same thing as reaction to pain. Humans and neural nets both display the latter, but the only instance of the former we can observe is in oneself. It's possible neural nets do experience pain, but we have no way of knowing that (any more than we do of knowing that other humans do).
- Houshalter 10y ago
  >The experience of pain is not the same thing as reaction to pain. I'm claiming the neural net does experience pain. It's not merely a reaction, like screaming "ow!" It's actually experiencing it. Internally, the neural net would experience directing its attention at the source of the pain, a deep desire to avoid it, and everything else that humans do. >It's possible neural nets do experience pain, but we have no way of knowing that (any more than we do of knowing that other humans do). That's just silly. Clearly pain, like everything else, must be a real physical thing that exists and can be observed. If it's a real process that is casually connected to us and the universe, that is. If it's not real or causally connected to us, then how can it exist or be relevant?
coldtea 10y ago
>The neural net would register your actions as an extremely negative experience, and do everything in it's power to get you to stop. Actually the neural net would just adjust some weights, i.e. make some calculations. No pain and no conscious "avoiding with everything in its power" either. Or if there is, the burden on proof is on you.
- Houshalter 10y ago
  >Actually the neural net would just adjust some weights, i.e. make some calculations. No pain and no conscious "avoiding with everything in its power" either. Yes and your brain does the exact same thing. If you are claiming the brain does magical non physical, non logical things, then the burden of proof is on you.
catawbasam 10y ago
One difference is that you wouldn't be morally condemned, and perhaps imprisoned, for setting CPU registers to a state the neural net was programmed to avoid. Also, the neural net evolves to meet an objective -- a purpose -- bestowed upon it by an outside power. Do you believe this is true of humans too?
- Houshalter 10y ago
  >One difference is that you wouldn't be morally condemned, and perhaps imprisoned, for setting CPU registers to a state the neural net was programmed to avoid. Of course you should be though. At least if we are asserting the neural net was advanced enough to be sufficiently human like. Torturing simulations of humans is no different than torturing actual humans. >Also, the neural net evolves to meet an objective -- a purpose -- bestowed upon it by an outside power. Do you believe this is true of humans too? The neural net serves humans the same way humans serve evolution.
RivieraKid 10y ago
> I never claimed there was an agreed on definition. But I think this is closer to one. If there's ever a "definition", it would be something like - pain is what I feel when this neuron gets activated. Not really a definition though. > Yes, obviously. The neural net would register your actions as an extremely negative experience, and do everything in it's power to get you to stop. How is that different than torturing a person? You could also create an analog computer that uses the position of pieces of sand instead of a memory. Does positioning the sand in a specific way cause pain? In fact, there are pretty much infinitely many ways you could encode the memory in sand positions (or atom or molecule positions). So are there infinitely many feelings of pain and joy around us?
- Houshalter 10y ago
  >If there's ever a "definition", it would be something like - pain is what I feel when this neuron gets activated. Not really a definition though. I would define it more like shocking a neural net with negative reward. A specific kind of learning process that learns to avoid a specific kind of situation, that's pain. >Does positioning the sand in a specific way cause pain? Of course not, because sand isn't a computer. The sand isn't doing any computation. It's static and unchanging. But if you actually made a computer out of sand, and you ran it, then yes, running the computer would be causing pain.