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As others have said, freedom of speech is not the first Amendment and America is not the world. But even American thinkers themselves define it more broadly, (
by drewcrawford 10y ago
As others have said, freedom of speech is not the first Amendment and America is not the world. But even American thinkers themselves define it more broadly, (and always have) e.g.
> What is the liberty of the press? Who can give it any definition which would leave not the utmost latitude for evasion? I hold it to be impracticable... [0]
> Protection against the tyranny of government isn't enough; there needs to be protection also against the tyranny of prevailing opinion and feeling [1]
> Liberty of circulating is as essential to liberty as liberty of publishing; indeed, without the circulation, the publication would be of little value. [2]
Then of course even if what you have in mind is the First Amendment, its whole historical trajectory is to expand to apply to more things. As written it applied to only Congress as distinct from any other form of government, and I note the conspicuous absence of that limitation in how you describe the freedom. And this may be news to some, but we started applying it to private actors long before I was born (Wickersham v. City of Columbia, Brentwood Acad. v. TN Sec. School Ath. Assn, etc.) So it has a long history of ever-expanding scope, and of course when you look at what e.g. Madison thought it was broad from its very birth.
Now we get to
> Well, the real world will never let you have that type of "free speech". If it bothers people... they can start another website/college that allows it. ... In other words, the non-government "free speech" has a cost and sometimes, society doesn't want to pay for it
I'm trying not to poison the well, but this same argument made here has implications for e.g. civil rights. "If you want a hotel that lets black people stay there you can start another one. Racial integration has a cost and society doesn't want to pay for it." But we decided as a society (over many folks' objections) that racial equality was important, and so we wrote legislation. Some people really disliked that at the time; some people still dislike it. However as we no longer have segregated bathrooms I think it is hard to argue that "the real world will never let you" establish human rights, it is actually the story of our country.
You are certainly free to believe that there we have no fundamental human right to expressing a political position on the Internet without living in fear of being fired from our job; that we have come quite far enough, thanks. You can also believe that one's "right" to do that is trumped by other people's rights to contract freely.
But I think in that case one should just admit that they don't see free speech as a fundamental human right. There is no shame in that position. And there is no need to hide behind an economic argument from a dark time in our history, there is no need to accuse folks who do see free speech as fundamental as "diluting" the term or that we live somewhere other than "the real world". Just saying "I don't believe it's a right" is a much faster, tighter, and more difficult argument to attack.
[0] Federalist 84
[1] JS Mill, On Liberty
[2] SCOTUS, Lovell v. City of Griffin
- jasode 10y ago>But I think in that case one should just admit that they don't see free speech as a fundamental human right. I do believe "free speech" as in freedom to criticize or dissent from the government as a fundamental right. On the other hand, "free speech" as in freedom to speak any topic without any negative consequences of income or social disapproval is not possible. It is not just my belief. I'm saying it's impossible to provide non-government type of free speech because it contradicts the other Freedom Of Association (e.g. freedom to choose who/what to spend money on.) Freedom of speech (non-government version) cannot not co-exist with Freedom of Association. It is built on top of Freedom of Association. Example: A blogger has the "freedom of speech" to hate on Mark Zuckerberg (a non-government topic). MZ also has freedom not to associate with people who hate him (and in turn he might reciprocate the dislike.) Freedom of speech (non-government version) is not as fundamental as MZ's freedom to associate (or not associate) with you. He can avoid hiring you because you hate him. Was the hate blogger's "freedom of speech" trampled because he wasn't hired? This is what the "cost" in "cost of free speech" is about. No society will "pay" for it because people don't want to be forced to spend money on entities they don't agree with. The "cost" for government-free-speech is different. The government simply has to not spend money on an expanding fleet of black helicopters to arrest people. The government also does not spend money on building more Federal prisons to incarcerate dissenters. Realistic to implement: free speech without government interference (don't arrest people) Impossible to implement: free speech with zero negative consequences from society (advertising sponsors drop you, job application rejected, school admission rejected, marriage proposal rejected, Facebook de-friending, Twitter un-following, radical religious retaliation, etc, etc.)