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So you'll have no problem with a world where homosexual advocates, communists and anti-racists are socially shunned and economically excluded? I should have the

So you'll have no problem with a world where homosexual advocates, communists and anti-racists are socially shunned and economically excluded? I should have the total freedom to refuse to hire anyone who advocates for more women/non-Asian minorities in technology? The Hollywood Blacklist - published by the Hollywood Reporter and implemented by studios - was totally fine? This is a very libertarian position. But those of us who are part of the left wing are somewhat cognizant of the dangers of marginal voices being economically and socially excluded, even if it's not done via state sponsored violence. (Incidentally, is there also no problem with freedom of association applying only to the government? I.e., if I choose not to associate with women/non-Asian minorities in my business, that's ok too, given that I'm not the government?)

zeveb 10y ago
> So you'll have no problem with a world where homosexual advocates, communists and anti-racists are socially shunned and economically excluded? Do you have a problem with a world where those who oppose homosexual activity, corporations and racists are socially shunned and economically excluded? > I should have the total freedom to refuse to hire anyone who advocates for more women/non-Asian minorities in technology? Do you have total freedom to refuse to hire anyone who advocates for merit-based hiring? > The Hollywood Blacklist - published by the Hollywood Reporter and implemented by studios - was totally fine? Was the NBA's lifetime ban on Donald Sterling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Sterling#Racial_remarks_and_lifetime_ban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Sterling#Racial_remarks...) totally fine? > This is a very libertarian position. But those of us who are part of the left wing are somewhat cognizant of the dangers of marginal voices being economically and socially excluded, even if it's not done via state sponsored violence. I'd argue that the groups you mentioned are far less marginalised than those I mentioned. That was, of course, not the case until recently. That's why I take the libertarian position: freedom of association is sacrosanct; you are free to associate with whomever you like and I am free to associate with whomever I like (I suppose I should note that I've no desire to associate with racists and sexists, just to forestall that line of criticism). Anything else is fundamentally unjust: it uses the threat of force to compel someone to associate with those he wishes to remove himself from. It's wrong.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  Do you have a problem with a world where those who oppose homosexual activity, corporations and racists are socially shunned and economically excluded? Yes. I haven't reached epistemic closure. (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/books/28conserv.html?_r=1 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/books/28conserv.html?_r=1 if you are unfamiliar.) I believe we may be incorrect about a variety of things we currently believe - we have not yet reached the pinnacle of human knowledge. In order to discover places where we currently are wrong, we need to be tolerant of people expressing dissenting points of view. For this purpose, preventing a (possibly correct) dissenting view from being expressed via social ostracism is just as harmful as preventing it via force of arms.
  - zeveb 10y ago
    > In order to discover places where we currently are wrong, we need to be tolerant of people expressing dissenting points of view. I agree, but I distinguish between tolerance & acceptance. Tolerance means you do your thing & I do my thing; acceptance means we do the same thing. The problem is, if we each have opposing ideas of the good then we can't accept one another's ideas. Acceptance of opposing ideas can only really work by pretending that the ideas themselves don't matter, but tolerance can respect the importance of the ideas themselves while agreeing to disagree.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      I'm not suggesting you should accept my ideas that you believe are wrong. I'm suggesting that you should prove yourself correct rather than simply making me afraid to speak. If your ideas are correct, why is that so difficult?
  - isleyaardvark 10y ago
    You haven't reached epistemic closure on racism? Donald Sterling's comments: "It bothers me a lot that you want to broadcast that you're associating with black people", and, "You can sleep with [black people]. You can bring them in, you can do whatever you want", but "the little I ask you is ... not to bring them to my games" - you haven't reached epistemic closure on that?
MustardTiger 10y ago
>But those of us who are part of the left wing are somewhat cognizant of the dangers of marginal voices being economically and socially excluded It sure doesn't look like that is the case, since it is overwhelmingly leftists that are trying to silence things they don't like, trying to get people fired for having "wrong" opinions, and justifying their attacks on people with "but I'm on the right side of history".

zeveb 10y ago

> So you'll have no problem with a world where homosexual advocates, communists and anti-racists are socially shunned and economically excluded? Do you have a problem with a world where those who oppose homosexual activity, corporations and racists are socially shunned and economically excluded? > I should have the total freedom to refuse to hire anyone who advocates for more women/non-Asian minorities in technology? Do you have total freedom to refuse to hire anyone who advocates for merit-based hiring? > The Hollywood Blacklist - published by the Hollywood Reporter and implemented by studios - was totally fine? Was the NBA's lifetime ban on Donald Sterling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Sterling#Racial_remarks_and_lifetime_ban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Sterling#Racial_remarks...) totally fine? > This is a very libertarian position. But those of us who are part of the left wing are somewhat cognizant of the dangers of marginal voices being economically and socially excluded, even if it's not done via state sponsored violence. I'd argue that the groups you mentioned are far less marginalised than those I mentioned. That was, of course, not the case until recently. That's why I take the libertarian position: freedom of association is sacrosanct; you are free to associate with whomever you like and I am free to associate with whomever I like (I suppose I should note that I've no desire to associate with racists and sexists, just to forestall that line of criticism). Anything else is fundamentally unjust: it uses the threat of force to compel someone to associate with those he wishes to remove himself from. It's wrong.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
Do you have a problem with a world where those who oppose homosexual activity, corporations and racists are socially shunned and economically excluded? Yes. I haven't reached epistemic closure. (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/books/28conserv.html?_r=1 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/books/28conserv.html?_r=1 if you are unfamiliar.) I believe we may be incorrect about a variety of things we currently believe - we have not yet reached the pinnacle of human knowledge. In order to discover places where we currently are wrong, we need to be tolerant of people expressing dissenting points of view. For this purpose, preventing a (possibly correct) dissenting view from being expressed via social ostracism is just as harmful as preventing it via force of arms.
- zeveb 10y ago
  > In order to discover places where we currently are wrong, we need to be tolerant of people expressing dissenting points of view. I agree, but I distinguish between tolerance & acceptance. Tolerance means you do your thing & I do my thing; acceptance means we do the same thing. The problem is, if we each have opposing ideas of the good then we can't accept one another's ideas. Acceptance of opposing ideas can only really work by pretending that the ideas themselves don't matter, but tolerance can respect the importance of the ideas themselves while agreeing to disagree.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    I'm not suggesting you should accept my ideas that you believe are wrong. I'm suggesting that you should prove yourself correct rather than simply making me afraid to speak. If your ideas are correct, why is that so difficult?
- isleyaardvark 10y ago
  You haven't reached epistemic closure on racism? Donald Sterling's comments: "It bothers me a lot that you want to broadcast that you're associating with black people", and, "You can sleep with [black people]. You can bring them in, you can do whatever you want", but "the little I ask you is ... not to bring them to my games" - you haven't reached epistemic closure on that?

MustardTiger 10y ago

>But those of us who are part of the left wing are somewhat cognizant of the dangers of marginal voices being economically and socially excluded It sure doesn't look like that is the case, since it is overwhelmingly leftists that are trying to silence things they don't like, trying to get people fired for having "wrong" opinions, and justifying their attacks on people with "but I'm on the right side of history".