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> It is so esoteric to begin with If abstract algebra is so "esoteric" for you, I'm afraid you should rather read Trump speeches instead of following HN. > I

by sklogic 10y ago

> It is so esoteric to begin with If abstract algebra is so "esoteric" for you, I'm afraid you should rather read Trump speeches instead of following HN. > I mean really, “outlives or equals to”? Suggest a better alternative and prove that we should throw away decades worth of papers and start using your new terminology.

igravious 10y ago
FTA: “Regions have an outlive relation defined on them.” Typo? Should that be outlives? We say equality, inequality, equivalence (equal valence, i.e. value) relation. To be equal -> equality. To outlive -> ? Valid question, outlives doesn't quite fit? To exceed the lifetime, to go beyond the region -> an excession relation, an overboundedness relation? I jest (in part). Naming things is hard! One of the two hard things in programming, as they say. > Suggest a better alternative and prove that we should throw away decades worth of papers and start using your new terminology. “outlives or equals to” -> “outlives or is equal to in scope/duration” reads better to my ears. So it's not even to outlive, it's to live for the same amount as or outlive. GP has valid language use concerns. And yes, abstract algebra is esoteric. ps: The Trump swipe is crass.
- sklogic 10y ago
  Ok, I see, 'outlives' is much better. But I guess he's complaining about the very choice of the relationship names, not nitpicking about grammar. > abstract algebra is esoteric. How is it so? It's fundamental and essential. "Esoteric" implies "mostly useless", which is definitely not true.
  - igravious 10y ago
    Cool. No way am I saying that abstract algebra is mostly useless, not at all. There's another sense for `esoteric'[2] which means hidden (or secret?) or highly specialised[0] or rare or unconventional. Which I think is what is being got at here, a sort of math-cult[1] if you will :) [0] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/esoterica http://www.thefreedictionary.com/esoterica [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_esotericism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_esotericism [2] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/esoteric http://www.thefreedictionary.com/esoteric edit: I agree, abstract algebra is fundamental, beautiful, and essential - but in fairness, it is highly domain specific and if Rust's type system can be explained as exactly and succinctly with terms closer to home thenwe ought to give it a shot
    - sklogic 10y ago
      > it is highly domain specific It is "domain specific" to pretty much all the domains in existence.
- jcrites 10y ago
  Outlive -> Outlivity? :-) I think talking about the "outlives" relation is reasonably clear. "A outlives B (written B < A) if ...". The relation for <= could be written "outlives or is equal to", or "lives at least as long as". Thus "B <= A" could be spoken "A lives at least as long as B", or "A outlives or is equal to B".
transfire 10y ago
Word choices aside, my original question is a legitimate one. How does something like this gain rank? B/c there's no way a majority of Hacker News readers saw this, read it, and thought "great article -- up vote!"
- sklogic 10y ago
  I guess for a majority of HN readers abstract algebra is not "esoteric", and type systems is a very hot topic indeed. Even those pitiful articles from the dynamic typing zealots are very often coming to the front page, so a high quality explanation of a trendy topic in the modern type systems research should definitely attract a lot of attention.
- yomritoyj 10y ago
  I'm among the upvoters. I have been hearing a lot about Rust, and its unique feature is its memory management, but the official Rust documentation is not as clear as it could be. I was building up courage to go read the compiler sources, so I found the article very timely and useful.
  - steveklabnik 10y ago
    For what it's worth, we also know that, and I'm in the process of re-doing it. The official docs will never present it like this, though, as they're more targeted towards working programmers than type theory experts, and so I'm excited to see more articles like this pop up.

by sklogic 10y ago

igravious 10y ago

FTA: “Regions have an outlive relation defined on them.” Typo? Should that be outlives? We say equality, inequality, equivalence (equal valence, i.e. value) relation. To be equal -> equality. To outlive -> ? Valid question, outlives doesn't quite fit? To exceed the lifetime, to go beyond the region -> an excession relation, an overboundedness relation? I jest (in part). Naming things is hard! One of the two hard things in programming, as they say. > Suggest a better alternative and prove that we should throw away decades worth of papers and start using your new terminology. “outlives or equals to” -> “outlives or is equal to in scope/duration” reads better to my ears. So it's not even to outlive, it's to live for the same amount as or outlive. GP has valid language use concerns. And yes, abstract algebra is esoteric. ps: The Trump swipe is crass.

sklogic 10y ago
Ok, I see, 'outlives' is much better. But I guess he's complaining about the very choice of the relationship names, not nitpicking about grammar. > abstract algebra is esoteric. How is it so? It's fundamental and essential. "Esoteric" implies "mostly useless", which is definitely not true.
- igravious 10y ago
  Cool. No way am I saying that abstract algebra is mostly useless, not at all. There's another sense for `esoteric'[2] which means hidden (or secret?) or highly specialised[0] or rare or unconventional. Which I think is what is being got at here, a sort of math-cult[1] if you will :) [0] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/esoterica http://www.thefreedictionary.com/esoterica [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_esotericism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_esotericism [2] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/esoteric http://www.thefreedictionary.com/esoteric edit: I agree, abstract algebra is fundamental, beautiful, and essential - but in fairness, it is highly domain specific and if Rust's type system can be explained as exactly and succinctly with terms closer to home thenwe ought to give it a shot
  - sklogic 10y ago
    > it is highly domain specific It is "domain specific" to pretty much all the domains in existence.
jcrites 10y ago
Outlive -> Outlivity? :-) I think talking about the "outlives" relation is reasonably clear. "A outlives B (written B < A) if ...". The relation for <= could be written "outlives or is equal to", or "lives at least as long as". Thus "B <= A" could be spoken "A lives at least as long as B", or "A outlives or is equal to B".

transfire 10y ago

Word choices aside, my original question is a legitimate one. How does something like this gain rank? B/c there's no way a majority of Hacker News readers saw this, read it, and thought "great article -- up vote!"

sklogic 10y ago
I guess for a majority of HN readers abstract algebra is not "esoteric", and type systems is a very hot topic indeed. Even those pitiful articles from the dynamic typing zealots are very often coming to the front page, so a high quality explanation of a trendy topic in the modern type systems research should definitely attract a lot of attention.
yomritoyj 10y ago
I'm among the upvoters. I have been hearing a lot about Rust, and its unique feature is its memory management, but the official Rust documentation is not as clear as it could be. I was building up courage to go read the compiler sources, so I found the article very timely and useful.
- steveklabnik 10y ago
  For what it's worth, we also know that, and I'm in the process of re-doing it. The official docs will never present it like this, though, as they're more targeted towards working programmers than type theory experts, and so I'm excited to see more articles like this pop up.