6 ms·

I'm never understood this marker system. Graves have been marked in a threatening manner so that they would not be plundered. It doesn't work. The point is to

I'm never understood this marker system. Graves have been marked in a threatening manner so that they would not be plundered. It doesn't work. The point is to hide the waste. The system should be designed to progressively unveil warnings if some future man starts digging. Otherwise, you're just asking for them to dig it up. Another thing not mentioned is to design the container so that anyone who plans to excavate will think they have hit rock bottom... like Pharoahs' tombs or a multi-level pirate cache. Or even better, put something horrible and poisonous twenty feet down. It might be better to obviously poison a couple people if they start digging this up. That would be easily understood and eventually avoided. Remember the radioactive sign in the Star Trek episode where Data gets shishkabobed? They made jewelery...

wtbob 10y ago
> The point is to hide the waste. The problem is that this was during the Cold War, and the site needed to operate on an ongoing basis, not just be used once and then hidden. They had to prepare for the possibility of a Soviet nuclear attack killing everyone responsible for the site, thus had to design a site which would still serve even if its operators disappeared.
neltnerb 10y ago
I thought it was pretty interesting that they weren't really talking about making the site "threatening", but making it "repulsive". Poor craftsmanship, ugly terrain, uncomfortable heat, low value materials, etc. Some of their design photos were very different from what I'd assumed, and pretty much immediately triggered my "eww" response. Not intimidating exactly, just uncomfortable.
- patrickk 10y ago
  They attempted to go with "repulsive" for a nuclear waste disposal site in Finland, there's a really cool documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmWadizC8AQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmWadizC8AQ
  - pimlottc 10y ago
    Another recommendation, it's quite a lovely film.
  - lsaferite 10y ago
    Thank you for this. I've only watched a little so far but it's a great documentary.
  - hewhowhineth 10y ago
    Outstanding documentary. Thanks.
- jackhack 10y ago
  This is used today in the high security vault industry. Safes often include rubber pellets in the concrete pour between steel casing layers. Cutting into the safe with a torch or plasma cutter will cause these rubber pellets to burn and fill the room with noxious odors and thick smoke. It doesn't necessarily increase the physical resistance to entry, but it makes the environment extraordinarily unpleasant.
- badloginagain 10y ago
  I really like going the repulsive route. Disgust is a primal instinct, and the reaction is ubiquitous for all humans- leave the disgusting thing alone. I also like the breakdown they have of the different levels of communication. I can easily see it being mapped to product design- easy to digest information at the top of the funnel, more detailed/important information as you approach the bottom of the funnel.
tinco 10y ago
You're not thinking on the 10.000 year timescale. So you hide it, after 1000 years someone starts digging there and finds it anyway, they see the messages and stop, and then the site is left unhidden for the next 9000 years, what should it look like? Also even if poisoning people was ethical, how would the poison last 10,000 years? And how would you prevent people from using the poison as the potent weapon it clearly is? And what would the message be for those who defeat the poison to find the treasure that's obviously hidden by such a potent weapon?
- felipeerias 10y ago
  We still haven't opened the tomb of the first emperor of China, which has been closed for more than two millennia. One of the main reasons is the presence of enormous amounts of mercury. Whole rivers of it, according to tradition. There's your poison.
  - AlgorithmicTime 10y ago
    I don't think mercury's fast acting enough to be effective here.
  - drdaeman 10y ago
    Throughout the 10K years from now on, hazardous atmospheres probably won't be an issue, because of robotics - which wasn't even an imaginable option for the most part of the last two millenia (and now we're rapidly getting good at this stuff, so I somehow doubt Qin Shi Huang's tomb would remain unexplored for long).
    - icebraining 10y ago
      If you assume we'll have robotics, then this whole question is simplified - they'll probably have some easy way to lookup standard iconography of this era. This question is hard because you can't assume we'll be a technologically advanced society; for all we know, we'll be living with stone age technology.
  - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
jackhack 10y ago
>>a multi-level pirate cache. I immediately think of Oak Island, Nova Scotia, where a pirate's stash has resisted recovery for an incredible 221 years but has yielded taunting clues: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Island https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Island
- mhurron 10y ago
  It would appear that it has resisted recovery because there's probably nothing there.
  - Zikes 10y ago
    A most clever ruse, to be sure.
    - ctdonath 10y ago
      To what end? Tremendous effort for no purpose but to intrigue? Kinda like building an enormous underground labyrinth then filling it with sand, just to get a giggle at how much people will do (long after you're dead) to find the presumed hidden treasure that isn't there.
      - EdHominem 10y ago
        Probably just a lie. No effort. There are layers of wood, etc, but they're probably just laid down by natural causes over the millennia instead of being a constructed building.
        jackhack 10y ago
        "layers of wood, etc" doesn't do justice to what is in place there: http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/topics/oakisland/story.html http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/topics/oakisland/story.... Flagstones, layers of heavy timbers every 10 feet, a stone with carved glyphs at 90 feet, oak chests with coins, a sideways booby-trap well, Layers of blue clay at 130 and 160 feet, a cofferdam, and artifacts dating back 200+ years. This strikes me as far, far more than an elaborate prank; it is a significant defense system meant to protect _something_
scrollbar 10y ago
Interesting discussion at the tail end of the document: (a) We have all become very marker-prone, but shouldn't we nevertheless admit that, in the end, despite all we try to do, the most effective "marker" for any intruders will be a relatively limited amount of sickness and death caused by the radioactive waste? In other words, it is largely a self-correcting process if anyone intrudes without appropriate precautions, and it seems unlikely that intrusion on such buried waste would lead to large-scale disasters. An analysis of the likely number of deaths over 10,000 years due to inadvertent intrusion should be conducted. This cost should be weighted against that of the marker system.

wtbob 10y ago

> The point is to hide the waste. The problem is that this was during the Cold War, and the site needed to operate on an ongoing basis, not just be used once and then hidden. They had to prepare for the possibility of a Soviet nuclear attack killing everyone responsible for the site, thus had to design a site which would still serve even if its operators disappeared.

neltnerb 10y ago

I thought it was pretty interesting that they weren't really talking about making the site "threatening", but making it "repulsive". Poor craftsmanship, ugly terrain, uncomfortable heat, low value materials, etc. Some of their design photos were very different from what I'd assumed, and pretty much immediately triggered my "eww" response. Not intimidating exactly, just uncomfortable.

patrickk 10y ago
They attempted to go with "repulsive" for a nuclear waste disposal site in Finland, there's a really cool documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmWadizC8AQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmWadizC8AQ
- pimlottc 10y ago
  Another recommendation, it's quite a lovely film.
- lsaferite 10y ago
  Thank you for this. I've only watched a little so far but it's a great documentary.
- hewhowhineth 10y ago
  Outstanding documentary. Thanks.
jackhack 10y ago
This is used today in the high security vault industry. Safes often include rubber pellets in the concrete pour between steel casing layers. Cutting into the safe with a torch or plasma cutter will cause these rubber pellets to burn and fill the room with noxious odors and thick smoke. It doesn't necessarily increase the physical resistance to entry, but it makes the environment extraordinarily unpleasant.
badloginagain 10y ago
I really like going the repulsive route. Disgust is a primal instinct, and the reaction is ubiquitous for all humans- leave the disgusting thing alone. I also like the breakdown they have of the different levels of communication. I can easily see it being mapped to product design- easy to digest information at the top of the funnel, more detailed/important information as you approach the bottom of the funnel.

tinco 10y ago

You're not thinking on the 10.000 year timescale. So you hide it, after 1000 years someone starts digging there and finds it anyway, they see the messages and stop, and then the site is left unhidden for the next 9000 years, what should it look like? Also even if poisoning people was ethical, how would the poison last 10,000 years? And how would you prevent people from using the poison as the potent weapon it clearly is? And what would the message be for those who defeat the poison to find the treasure that's obviously hidden by such a potent weapon?

felipeerias 10y ago
We still haven't opened the tomb of the first emperor of China, which has been closed for more than two millennia. One of the main reasons is the presence of enormous amounts of mercury. Whole rivers of it, according to tradition. There's your poison.
- AlgorithmicTime 10y ago
  I don't think mercury's fast acting enough to be effective here.
- drdaeman 10y ago
  Throughout the 10K years from now on, hazardous atmospheres probably won't be an issue, because of robotics - which wasn't even an imaginable option for the most part of the last two millenia (and now we're rapidly getting good at this stuff, so I somehow doubt Qin Shi Huang's tomb would remain unexplored for long).
  - icebraining 10y ago
    If you assume we'll have robotics, then this whole question is simplified - they'll probably have some easy way to lookup standard iconography of this era. This question is hard because you can't assume we'll be a technologically advanced society; for all we know, we'll be living with stone age technology.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago

jackhack 10y ago

>>a multi-level pirate cache. I immediately think of Oak Island, Nova Scotia, where a pirate's stash has resisted recovery for an incredible 221 years but has yielded taunting clues: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Island https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Island

mhurron 10y ago
It would appear that it has resisted recovery because there's probably nothing there.
- Zikes 10y ago
  A most clever ruse, to be sure.
  - ctdonath 10y ago
    To what end? Tremendous effort for no purpose but to intrigue? Kinda like building an enormous underground labyrinth then filling it with sand, just to get a giggle at how much people will do (long after you're dead) to find the presumed hidden treasure that isn't there.
    - EdHominem 10y ago
      Probably just a lie. No effort. There are layers of wood, etc, but they're probably just laid down by natural causes over the millennia instead of being a constructed building.
      - jackhack 10y ago
        "layers of wood, etc" doesn't do justice to what is in place there: http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/topics/oakisland/story.html http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/topics/oakisland/story.... Flagstones, layers of heavy timbers every 10 feet, a stone with carved glyphs at 90 feet, oak chests with coins, a sideways booby-trap well, Layers of blue clay at 130 and 160 feet, a cofferdam, and artifacts dating back 200+ years. This strikes me as far, far more than an elaborate prank; it is a significant defense system meant to protect _something_

scrollbar 10y ago

Interesting discussion at the tail end of the document: (a) We have all become very marker-prone, but shouldn't we nevertheless admit that, in the end, despite all we try to do, the most effective "marker" for any intruders will be a relatively limited amount of sickness and death caused by the radioactive waste? In other words, it is largely a self-correcting process if anyone intrudes without appropriate precautions, and it seems unlikely that intrusion on such buried waste would lead to large-scale disasters. An analysis of the likely number of deaths over 10,000 years due to inadvertent intrusion should be conducted. This cost should be weighted against that of the marker system.