5 ms·

I grew up in a very non-jewish neighborhood, and then went on to college where 30% of people were jewish. Learning Jewish names and characteristics was quite u

I grew up in a very non-jewish neighborhood, and then went on to college where 30% of people were jewish. Learning Jewish names and characteristics was quite useful in being able to better adapt myself socially, especially when it came to food, holidays, etc. An extension like this would have no doubt been helpful. It's weird to me that noting which names are likely jewish is taboo =/ I never thought of it as anti-semetic or racist at the time.

waterphone 10y ago
It's all about the intent. They're doing this so they can target and harass these people. If it was merely some sort of educational tool which identified names and provided historical origins of those names, I'm sure there would be no issue. But this tool exists so neo-Nazis can harass people with Jewish names.
- MichaelGG 10y ago
  But that's literally the stated purpose of the extension -- to identify names, nothing more. If someone made a more expansive name highlighter, and the same people used it for the same purpose, should it be taken down too?
  - DanBC 10y ago
    But the (((echo))) is being used to target harassment. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11826647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11826647
munchbunny 10y ago
This is where we walk a fine line around intentions and usage. The app that was banned was using the information to direct hate speech towards people. Your goal was probably just to navigate social interactions more fluently or sensitively. One is racist, the other is fine. The difference is in how you're using the information. The line is harder to draw when you're talking about automated tools, where something that automatically identifies Jews could be used in either way, and now you have to decide whether a blanket ban is worth it to stamp out the bad usages.
- randyrand 10y ago
  It's trivially easy for bad actors to instead install a grease monkeyscript that does the same thing. The effect it has on making anti-antisemitism harder to carry out is very, very, literally negligible. This is about PR. If anything we should be talking about the merits for and against this PR move, Software Freedom, PR freedom, etc. As a PR move, some people will like it, some wont. I personally don't like this PR move because I relatively care more about software freedom, and I think it's undesirable to censor apps based on the majority use case of it, instead of what the app actually does.
  - munchbunny 10y ago
    I don't think it's really a PR move. Certainly it could be a PR move, but whether or not GreaseMonkey exists, banning this plugin is perfectly justified on moral grounds. I don't disagree with you about software freedom, but this plugin sounds like it was specifically intended to direct hate speech. Another commenter in the tree included a link to a different posting about how the ((())) is used as a marker to target people online. This app injects the ((()))'s. If the plugin had used a less loaded indicator, I might see this situation differently. However, since the plugin is using an indicator specifically intended to mark people for abuse online, I have no doubt about its intentions. Edit: Link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11826647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11826647
    - randyrand 10y ago
      Moral grounds and PR are one in the same. It's your companies morals that are most important to PR. PR is all about communicating your companies morals. Your morals are your PR. Perhaps I'm taking a broader definition of PR than you. I'm not just including money actively spent on PR, PR reps, etc. I'm talking more fundamentally than that - the way your company conducts it's business. I understand your point. You care more about Google discouraging negative racial speech (I don't like the phrase hate speech as its used too subjectively) than you do software freedom. And from that perspective google made the right PR move. But, as someone that cares more about software freedom, freedom of speech, etc, I think it's a bad PR move. In the end, Google will do whatever it think is best in its opinion.
gumby 10y ago
It's all about intent, and your intent sounds innocent. This plug in was intended to do harm (how much harm is debatable). After all, if you just pick up your gun tomorrow and shoot your neighbor you'll be guilty of murder. But put on a uniform and shoot someone because your boss tells you to and you're probably a hero. More prosaically, accidentally killing someone is punished less severely than deliberately doing so. FWIW I am glad google tok this action, but at the same time I am troubled by it, and by my support for it. They are a private company and are welcome to do what they would like, however they are also a kind of public utility, and by taking this step encourage themselves to be pressured by various governments to censor other results. And does this implicitly waive their CDA section 230 immunity in the USA?
mikestew 10y ago
It's weird to me that noting which names are likely jewish is taboo It's weird to me that people ever made a note of it at all. But that's my POV having grown up in a...less than enlightened area of the U. S. IOW, if anyone ever made a note about the origins of a particular name, it was usually in the context of, "Levi SomethingStein? Sounds like a Jew name!" and not meant as a compliment. I always thought it was silly, but your post gives me a new perspective on a possible good reason to do this. But given how I always thought it was silly (or rather where I grew up, bigoted and mean-spirited), I sometimes missed the obvious. A co-worker once took the day off for $JEWISH_HOLIDAY. I commented, "oh, didn't know John was Jewish." "Dude, his last name is GOLDHAMMER." Oh. Duh. Seems kind of obvious now.
- randyrand 10y ago
  More than just Holidays and food, knowing people's religion also helps you to make better impressions with people.

waterphone 10y ago

It's all about the intent. They're doing this so they can target and harass these people. If it was merely some sort of educational tool which identified names and provided historical origins of those names, I'm sure there would be no issue. But this tool exists so neo-Nazis can harass people with Jewish names.

MichaelGG 10y ago
But that's literally the stated purpose of the extension -- to identify names, nothing more. If someone made a more expansive name highlighter, and the same people used it for the same purpose, should it be taken down too?
- DanBC 10y ago
  But the (((echo))) is being used to target harassment. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11826647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11826647

munchbunny 10y ago

This is where we walk a fine line around intentions and usage. The app that was banned was using the information to direct hate speech towards people. Your goal was probably just to navigate social interactions more fluently or sensitively. One is racist, the other is fine. The difference is in how you're using the information. The line is harder to draw when you're talking about automated tools, where something that automatically identifies Jews could be used in either way, and now you have to decide whether a blanket ban is worth it to stamp out the bad usages.

randyrand 10y ago
It's trivially easy for bad actors to instead install a grease monkeyscript that does the same thing. The effect it has on making anti-antisemitism harder to carry out is very, very, literally negligible. This is about PR. If anything we should be talking about the merits for and against this PR move, Software Freedom, PR freedom, etc. As a PR move, some people will like it, some wont. I personally don't like this PR move because I relatively care more about software freedom, and I think it's undesirable to censor apps based on the majority use case of it, instead of what the app actually does.
- munchbunny 10y ago
  I don't think it's really a PR move. Certainly it could be a PR move, but whether or not GreaseMonkey exists, banning this plugin is perfectly justified on moral grounds. I don't disagree with you about software freedom, but this plugin sounds like it was specifically intended to direct hate speech. Another commenter in the tree included a link to a different posting about how the ((())) is used as a marker to target people online. This app injects the ((()))'s. If the plugin had used a less loaded indicator, I might see this situation differently. However, since the plugin is using an indicator specifically intended to mark people for abuse online, I have no doubt about its intentions. Edit: Link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11826647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11826647
  - randyrand 10y ago
    Moral grounds and PR are one in the same. It's your companies morals that are most important to PR. PR is all about communicating your companies morals. Your morals are your PR. Perhaps I'm taking a broader definition of PR than you. I'm not just including money actively spent on PR, PR reps, etc. I'm talking more fundamentally than that - the way your company conducts it's business. I understand your point. You care more about Google discouraging negative racial speech (I don't like the phrase hate speech as its used too subjectively) than you do software freedom. And from that perspective google made the right PR move. But, as someone that cares more about software freedom, freedom of speech, etc, I think it's a bad PR move. In the end, Google will do whatever it think is best in its opinion.

gumby 10y ago

It's all about intent, and your intent sounds innocent. This plug in was intended to do harm (how much harm is debatable). After all, if you just pick up your gun tomorrow and shoot your neighbor you'll be guilty of murder. But put on a uniform and shoot someone because your boss tells you to and you're probably a hero. More prosaically, accidentally killing someone is punished less severely than deliberately doing so. FWIW I am glad google tok this action, but at the same time I am troubled by it, and by my support for it. They are a private company and are welcome to do what they would like, however they are also a kind of public utility, and by taking this step encourage themselves to be pressured by various governments to censor other results. And does this implicitly waive their CDA section 230 immunity in the USA?

mikestew 10y ago

It's weird to me that noting which names are likely jewish is taboo It's weird to me that people ever made a note of it at all. But that's my POV having grown up in a...less than enlightened area of the U. S. IOW, if anyone ever made a note about the origins of a particular name, it was usually in the context of, "Levi SomethingStein? Sounds like a Jew name!" and not meant as a compliment. I always thought it was silly, but your post gives me a new perspective on a possible good reason to do this. But given how I always thought it was silly (or rather where I grew up, bigoted and mean-spirited), I sometimes missed the obvious. A co-worker once took the day off for $JEWISH_HOLIDAY. I commented, "oh, didn't know John was Jewish." "Dude, his last name is GOLDHAMMER." Oh. Duh. Seems kind of obvious now.

randyrand 10y ago
More than just Holidays and food, knowing people's religion also helps you to make better impressions with people.