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One of the most interesting things about the gun rights community is how strenuously this exact question of "where do you draw the bright line that, once crosse

One of the most interesting things about the gun rights community is how strenuously this exact question of "where do you draw the bright line that, once crossed, you'll rise up?" is avoided. You know how that guy took that video of himself asking anti-abortion protestors, "if abortion is murder, then shouldn't we put women who procure abortions on trial for murder?" and they all just short-circuited, like they'd never even thought of the question before? And how Trump stepped in it when he suggested that women who procure abortions should be punished? The "ok, so exactly when do you plan on using that thing, and with what group (because we all know you're not going to fight tyranny by yourself)?" questions are sort of like that, but for pro-gun people. They either haven't really thought it through that far, or they're not willing to talk about it, or both. FWIW, I think many gun rights people have the same delusion about guns as anti-gun people, and that's this: a gun in the hands of an individual is a thing of immense, Godlike power for mass destruction. The pro-gun people are all <boromir>We can use this power for good</boromir>, and the anti-gun people are all <gandalf>drop that ring!</gandalf>. But where they both go wrong is at the heart of what you've pointed out: guns are an effective political force only when wielded by organized groups towards a specific set of goals. Everyone just having a gun in their closet is about as effective as everyone just going out and voting (without having a party or a plan). You can do that and feel like you've got some power, but you're not actually changing anything or threatening the status quo. It's just a political fantasy that you're buying into.

daxorid 10y ago
Indeed. Which is why the widespread social stigmatizing and LEA spying of militia membership is so very effective, and so very worrisome. No reasonable organized resistance could ever arise in the US, as it stands - even if despotism took hold.
- mwfunk 10y ago
  Militias do a fantastic job of socially stigmatizing themselves, no government plots required for that one at least.
RyJones 10y ago
I don't disagree with your most of your points, and I would go further: most gun owners are buying fashion items without any intention to use them, ever, in any way. I suspect there is another reason to consider about reticence to discuss where the line is and what exactly the plan is once crossed: the POR against insurgency is find, fix, and destroy [0] and there has been plenty of domestic [1] practice. Why make yourself an easy target? So, to your first point that they haven't thought about it meaningfully, I agree. Fashion items. [0] http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-07-22/ch3-iii.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/f... [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/05/18/407665820/why-did-we-forget-the-move-bombing http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/05/18/407665820/... etc
- Frondo 10y ago
  "most gun owners are buying fashion items"--thank you, I've never seen it better said. As for where the line is drawn, well, I think the biggest reason people don't want to draw any such lines is because the US government isn't a tyranny and isn't heading there in any way. One of the biggest political issues in recent times is, of course, health care, but can you imagine how stupid it would come off as to try and lead a revolution against mandatory health insurance? Likewise for every other hot-button issue--armed revolution because now gay marriage is a thing? Because it's harder to find incandescent light bulbs? Mandated gas mileage improvements? Wherever you'd draw the line and not have it be 100% asinine, it'd be so far from reality that even declaring "here and no further" would make you look dumb.
phd514 10y ago
I think you're underestimating the network effects of widespread, private gun ownership. It's true that private gun owners will rarely coalesce into a potent political organization (NRA notwithstanding), but those types of organizations often form in reaction to external pressures. In other words, the more oppressive the government becomes, the more likely such organizations would be formed. Additionally, even without formal organization, they do serve as deterrents against crime. And then, of course, there are also individual benefits, but that's yet another matter.
hga 10y ago
That's because a lot of us don't want to let anyone know exactly when we'll take up arms, especially the more they have to lose and the more covert they might want to be about it. Me, I have a number of declared lines in the sand, the first and most obvious is required registration of all firearms. Although the kinds of enemy of the state I'd become is not so obvious, e.g. I won't start wacking government officials. On the other hand, other people [censored by dang, but please don't open that door].
- Frondo 10y ago
  Heh, and I don't want anyone like you judging when it is a good idea to overthrow the government. Frankly speaking, I already don't trust the judgment of anyone who talks so casually about revolution as you've done here ("I have a number of declared lines in the sand"?????). I have far more confidence in the current system than anything that would emerge when the internet tough guys get together to try and take it down. I have zero confidence that rational, reasonable people (and "I have a number of declared lines in the sand" and other such statements is not rational nor reasonable) would be included in the new politics following that revolution, and that would make me worried for how my friends, family, loved ones would be treated on the other side of such a revolution.
  - hga 10y ago
    Heh, and I don't want anyone like you judging when it is a good idea to overthrow the government. Unfortunately for you, you don't get to decide that for others. "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you" (misattributed to Trotsky). and "I have a number of declared lines in the sand" and other such statements is not rational nor reasonable And we should care about your opinion because...? that would make me worried for how my friends, family, loved ones would be treated on the other side of such a revolution. Then, if you're on the Left/progressive, you should stop pushing the other half of the country so hard. The other half just wants to be left alone, but that's obviously not happening.
    - Frondo 10y ago

daxorid 10y ago

Indeed. Which is why the widespread social stigmatizing and LEA spying of militia membership is so very effective, and so very worrisome. No reasonable organized resistance could ever arise in the US, as it stands - even if despotism took hold.

mwfunk 10y ago
Militias do a fantastic job of socially stigmatizing themselves, no government plots required for that one at least.

RyJones 10y ago

I don't disagree with your most of your points, and I would go further: most gun owners are buying fashion items without any intention to use them, ever, in any way. I suspect there is another reason to consider about reticence to discuss where the line is and what exactly the plan is once crossed: the POR against insurgency is find, fix, and destroy [0] and there has been plenty of domestic [1] practice. Why make yourself an easy target? So, to your first point that they haven't thought about it meaningfully, I agree. Fashion items. [0] http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-07-22/ch3-iii.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/f... [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/05/18/407665820/why-did-we-forget-the-move-bombing http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/05/18/407665820/... etc

Frondo 10y ago
"most gun owners are buying fashion items"--thank you, I've never seen it better said. As for where the line is drawn, well, I think the biggest reason people don't want to draw any such lines is because the US government isn't a tyranny and isn't heading there in any way. One of the biggest political issues in recent times is, of course, health care, but can you imagine how stupid it would come off as to try and lead a revolution against mandatory health insurance? Likewise for every other hot-button issue--armed revolution because now gay marriage is a thing? Because it's harder to find incandescent light bulbs? Mandated gas mileage improvements? Wherever you'd draw the line and not have it be 100% asinine, it'd be so far from reality that even declaring "here and no further" would make you look dumb.

phd514 10y ago

I think you're underestimating the network effects of widespread, private gun ownership. It's true that private gun owners will rarely coalesce into a potent political organization (NRA notwithstanding), but those types of organizations often form in reaction to external pressures. In other words, the more oppressive the government becomes, the more likely such organizations would be formed. Additionally, even without formal organization, they do serve as deterrents against crime. And then, of course, there are also individual benefits, but that's yet another matter.

hga 10y ago

That's because a lot of us don't want to let anyone know exactly when we'll take up arms, especially the more they have to lose and the more covert they might want to be about it. Me, I have a number of declared lines in the sand, the first and most obvious is required registration of all firearms. Although the kinds of enemy of the state I'd become is not so obvious, e.g. I won't start wacking government officials. On the other hand, other people [censored by dang, but please don't open that door].

Frondo 10y ago
Heh, and I don't want anyone like you judging when it is a good idea to overthrow the government. Frankly speaking, I already don't trust the judgment of anyone who talks so casually about revolution as you've done here ("I have a number of declared lines in the sand"?????). I have far more confidence in the current system than anything that would emerge when the internet tough guys get together to try and take it down. I have zero confidence that rational, reasonable people (and "I have a number of declared lines in the sand" and other such statements is not rational nor reasonable) would be included in the new politics following that revolution, and that would make me worried for how my friends, family, loved ones would be treated on the other side of such a revolution.
- hga 10y ago
  Heh, and I don't want anyone like you judging when it is a good idea to overthrow the government. Unfortunately for you, you don't get to decide that for others. "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you" (misattributed to Trotsky). and "I have a number of declared lines in the sand" and other such statements is not rational nor reasonable And we should care about your opinion because...? that would make me worried for how my friends, family, loved ones would be treated on the other side of such a revolution. Then, if you're on the Left/progressive, you should stop pushing the other half of the country so hard. The other half just wants to be left alone, but that's obviously not happening.
  - Frondo 10y ago