6 ms·

IMHO this whole movement is out there to point out how ridiculous some legislation is. Pretty much anyone with a brain can make a deadly weapon with time and ma

by bifrost 10y ago

IMHO this whole movement is out there to point out how ridiculous some legislation is. Pretty much anyone with a brain can make a deadly weapon with time and materials. They even make guns in prisons, so of course someone could 3d print the serialized parts of a gun. In certain types of guns those 3d printed parts are only minorly structual so they don't receive that much force, you could even conceivably hand carve one out of plastic. In addition, you could mill your own parts pretty easily, those plans have been available for decades as well.

Aelinsaar 10y ago
You can make a knife from a sharpened spoon, but you can do a lot more damage, more reliably, to more people, with a real sword. For now (although not forever) you're not going to 3D print an AR-15 Lower.
- djloche 10y ago
  It is easier and more economical to mill with a cnc. It is probably far cheaper even to just walk to the gun store and buy a rifle than it is to 3D print something similar.
  - celticninja 10y ago
    Not everywhere has gun stores.
  - Aelinsaar 10y ago
    A CNC is something that is pitifully easy for a regulatory agency to track, as far as large numbers of purchases go. See: that fellow who was milling AR-15 lowers and just got busted. We're talking about the difference between machining metal, and downloading and printing a schematic. I hope that you do see the difference.
    - 0xffff2 10y ago
      Easier than 3D printers? how so?
      - Aelinsaar 10y ago
        I'm saying the exact opposite.
    - abakker 10y ago
      It is easier to track distributing a sold product. It is very difficult to track what a person makes in the comfort of their home. I dont think the federal government keeps a registry for the purchase of milling machines.
      - Aelinsaar 10y ago
        If everyone who wants to own (to keep using this one example) an AR-15 had to buy a CNC, that would be quite the commitment. If the current model of people buying many milling machines and selling their services is the only viable way to avoid that, then you've already seen the feds start to take notice. After all, if you can get word of mouth around enough to make money, you're making enough noise to be heard. 3D printing is presumably going to become ubiquitous, and require no skill or experience to operate and maintain.
        int_19h 10y ago
        But that's the thing - with the present level of technology, you can have a device that is, essentially, pre-programmed CNC to make AR lowers (which is what Ghost Gunner is, for example) for under $300. To make a fully functional firearm from there, you also need a complete upper - can be had for another $400 or so these days; and a complete lower part kit with buffer tube and stock - can be had for less than $100. For a total of $800, some assembly required (or you can pay another $50 and have pretty much any gunsmith put it together for you). So basically, a person can take GG and produce an unregistered, untraceable, no-background-check-required AR with it for $800-900. For comparison, the Bushmaster AR that was used in Sandy Hook shooting costs ~$700.
- beachstartup 10y ago
  > you're not going to 3D print an AR-15 Lower this has already been done plenty of times, and i have a sneaking suspicion is far more widespread than anyone is letting on. meanwhile, you can just buy a hundred 80% lowers off the internet for probably less than a grand, and keep them around just in case. plenty of "normal" people stockpile this stuff. they just aren't telling anyone about it.
- angersock 10y ago
  http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/579913_3D_printed_lower___yes__it_works_.html http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/579913_3D_printed_lower__... Literally 10 seconds on Google.
- fixxer 10y ago
  You can start with an 80% lower and a $20 router from Harbor Freight and get something pretty good depending on how you set up a jig. It ain't rocket science.
  - Aelinsaar 10y ago
    No it isn't, but look at the instructions on a pack of ketchup some time and bask in the glory of the LCD. "Set up a jig" is alien babble to a huge number of people, for whom, "Press print" would not be.
    - sgnelson 10y ago
      That's what the internet is for.
      - Aelinsaar 10y ago
        Heh... sure. That, and blowing yourself up because the Navy Seal teaching you to make C4 was actually a 14 year old. The internet is a very YMMV experience, often that variance has to do with what you put into it. If the only people who can overcome a law are those smart and resourceful enough to learn how to mill their own guns, yet still criminally inclined, I'd say you've minimized your problem nicely.
- Mizza 10y ago
  Not only can you already print a lower, you can print a bolt-together lower than can be printed on a commercial Makerbot or similar. Here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42zpwpmGOvc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42zpwpmGOvc and another of it being test-fired: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TXz9kb83yc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TXz9kb83yc
6stringmerc 10y ago
I remember when there was a rumor going around of a guy who took an old shovel and made it into an AK type firearm. Found a link with photos: http://acidcow.com/pics/40255-ak-47-made-out-of-a-shovel-49-pics.html http://acidcow.com/pics/40255-ak-47-made-out-of-a-shovel-49-...
- Programmatic 10y ago
  The AK in particular is an interesting weapon in that the controlled part (legislation around guns deals with the concrete part that "is" the firearm, which is the action that houses nearly all of the other parts) is made out of stamped/bent sheet metal. The harder part in the case of an AK is the parts kit that has all of the other parts that must be actually machined. Step 0 of making an AK from a shovel is "buy a parts kit made from an entire old, previously functional gun minus the sheet metal and wooden furniture". In terms of making a true firearm from scratch an AK would still be fairly difficult. In terms of making a technical "firearm" (the controlled part), the AK is one of the simplest.
knodi123 10y ago
I wouldn't say "anybody with a brain". It still requires a lot of time, motivation, and uncommon resources. The real question is , should the law take any effort toward minimizing gun ownership by dangerous fruitcakes? If yes, then making it hard to trivially 3d print a gun is kind of necessary, otherwise, like you said, anybody with a brain could do it. Instead of now, where it requires a bit more.
- int_19h 10y ago
  It really doesn't require a lot of time nor resources. A 12 gauge zip gun is literally two steel tubes of the right diameter (can be found in most hardware store), and a tube cap with a hole that can have a bolt screwed in to serve as a firing pin. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1wV3lmbSv4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1wV3lmbSv4 Now, it is single-shot - but because they are so easy and cheap to make, someone who wanted to cause mayhem could just make and preload several dozen, and discard them as they shoot them. Still plenty deadly. That's the thing, really... guns aren't particularly complicated mechanically to begin with, and they are even less complicated if you strip them down to bare essentials - which, if you only intend to use it at a close range, still leaves them quite functional. On the other hand, the reason why guns are so simple is because most of the complexity is in the ammo. While that can be reloaded, it requires primers - and those can't easily be made at home. So, if you want gun control that actually works (in a sense of preventing dangerous people from owning an overly destructive device), it has to be primarily about ammo, not guns.
  - hga 10y ago
    And with US civilian ammo production above 12 billion rounds per year and increasing, 3 million rimfire (and not increasing due to the higher capital costs for than machinery), plus substantial imports, plus the seconds we are sold from military production, especially at Lake City (ATK has a win-win-win contract where the DoD can outright cancel orders and ATK can then run the materials they've bought through the government's machinery), well, that barn door has been wide open for 7 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9313_United_States_ammunition_shortage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9313_United_States_...

by bifrost 10y ago

Aelinsaar 10y ago

You can make a knife from a sharpened spoon, but you can do a lot more damage, more reliably, to more people, with a real sword. For now (although not forever) you're not going to 3D print an AR-15 Lower.

djloche 10y ago
It is easier and more economical to mill with a cnc. It is probably far cheaper even to just walk to the gun store and buy a rifle than it is to 3D print something similar.
- celticninja 10y ago
  Not everywhere has gun stores.
- Aelinsaar 10y ago
  A CNC is something that is pitifully easy for a regulatory agency to track, as far as large numbers of purchases go. See: that fellow who was milling AR-15 lowers and just got busted. We're talking about the difference between machining metal, and downloading and printing a schematic. I hope that you do see the difference.
  - 0xffff2 10y ago
    Easier than 3D printers? how so?
    - Aelinsaar 10y ago
      I'm saying the exact opposite.
  - abakker 10y ago
    It is easier to track distributing a sold product. It is very difficult to track what a person makes in the comfort of their home. I dont think the federal government keeps a registry for the purchase of milling machines.
    - Aelinsaar 10y ago
      If everyone who wants to own (to keep using this one example) an AR-15 had to buy a CNC, that would be quite the commitment. If the current model of people buying many milling machines and selling their services is the only viable way to avoid that, then you've already seen the feds start to take notice. After all, if you can get word of mouth around enough to make money, you're making enough noise to be heard. 3D printing is presumably going to become ubiquitous, and require no skill or experience to operate and maintain.
      - int_19h 10y ago
        But that's the thing - with the present level of technology, you can have a device that is, essentially, pre-programmed CNC to make AR lowers (which is what Ghost Gunner is, for example) for under $300. To make a fully functional firearm from there, you also need a complete upper - can be had for another $400 or so these days; and a complete lower part kit with buffer tube and stock - can be had for less than $100. For a total of $800, some assembly required (or you can pay another $50 and have pretty much any gunsmith put it together for you). So basically, a person can take GG and produce an unregistered, untraceable, no-background-check-required AR with it for $800-900. For comparison, the Bushmaster AR that was used in Sandy Hook shooting costs ~$700.
beachstartup 10y ago
> you're not going to 3D print an AR-15 Lower this has already been done plenty of times, and i have a sneaking suspicion is far more widespread than anyone is letting on. meanwhile, you can just buy a hundred 80% lowers off the internet for probably less than a grand, and keep them around just in case. plenty of "normal" people stockpile this stuff. they just aren't telling anyone about it.
angersock 10y ago
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/579913_3D_printed_lower___yes__it_works_.html http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/579913_3D_printed_lower__... Literally 10 seconds on Google.
fixxer 10y ago
You can start with an 80% lower and a $20 router from Harbor Freight and get something pretty good depending on how you set up a jig. It ain't rocket science.
- Aelinsaar 10y ago
  No it isn't, but look at the instructions on a pack of ketchup some time and bask in the glory of the LCD. "Set up a jig" is alien babble to a huge number of people, for whom, "Press print" would not be.
  - sgnelson 10y ago
    That's what the internet is for.
    - Aelinsaar 10y ago
      Heh... sure. That, and blowing yourself up because the Navy Seal teaching you to make C4 was actually a 14 year old. The internet is a very YMMV experience, often that variance has to do with what you put into it. If the only people who can overcome a law are those smart and resourceful enough to learn how to mill their own guns, yet still criminally inclined, I'd say you've minimized your problem nicely.
Mizza 10y ago
Not only can you already print a lower, you can print a bolt-together lower than can be printed on a commercial Makerbot or similar. Here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42zpwpmGOvc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42zpwpmGOvc and another of it being test-fired: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TXz9kb83yc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TXz9kb83yc

6stringmerc 10y ago

I remember when there was a rumor going around of a guy who took an old shovel and made it into an AK type firearm. Found a link with photos: http://acidcow.com/pics/40255-ak-47-made-out-of-a-shovel-49-pics.html http://acidcow.com/pics/40255-ak-47-made-out-of-a-shovel-49-...

Programmatic 10y ago
The AK in particular is an interesting weapon in that the controlled part (legislation around guns deals with the concrete part that "is" the firearm, which is the action that houses nearly all of the other parts) is made out of stamped/bent sheet metal. The harder part in the case of an AK is the parts kit that has all of the other parts that must be actually machined. Step 0 of making an AK from a shovel is "buy a parts kit made from an entire old, previously functional gun minus the sheet metal and wooden furniture". In terms of making a true firearm from scratch an AK would still be fairly difficult. In terms of making a technical "firearm" (the controlled part), the AK is one of the simplest.

knodi123 10y ago

I wouldn't say "anybody with a brain". It still requires a lot of time, motivation, and uncommon resources. The real question is , should the law take any effort toward minimizing gun ownership by dangerous fruitcakes? If yes, then making it hard to trivially 3d print a gun is kind of necessary, otherwise, like you said, anybody with a brain could do it. Instead of now, where it requires a bit more.

int_19h 10y ago
It really doesn't require a lot of time nor resources. A 12 gauge zip gun is literally two steel tubes of the right diameter (can be found in most hardware store), and a tube cap with a hole that can have a bolt screwed in to serve as a firing pin. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1wV3lmbSv4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1wV3lmbSv4 Now, it is single-shot - but because they are so easy and cheap to make, someone who wanted to cause mayhem could just make and preload several dozen, and discard them as they shoot them. Still plenty deadly. That's the thing, really... guns aren't particularly complicated mechanically to begin with, and they are even less complicated if you strip them down to bare essentials - which, if you only intend to use it at a close range, still leaves them quite functional. On the other hand, the reason why guns are so simple is because most of the complexity is in the ammo. While that can be reloaded, it requires primers - and those can't easily be made at home. So, if you want gun control that actually works (in a sense of preventing dangerous people from owning an overly destructive device), it has to be primarily about ammo, not guns.
- hga 10y ago
  And with US civilian ammo production above 12 billion rounds per year and increasing, 3 million rimfire (and not increasing due to the higher capital costs for than machinery), plus substantial imports, plus the seconds we are sold from military production, especially at Lake City (ATK has a win-win-win contract where the DoD can outright cancel orders and ATK can then run the materials they've bought through the government's machinery), well, that barn door has been wide open for 7 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9313_United_States_ammunition_shortage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9313_United_States_...