6 ms·

Had this been me, at some point I'd have driven to the bar, and asked the biggest guys I could find if they'd take $500 to show up at the guy's house and scare

Had this been me, at some point I'd have driven to the bar, and asked the biggest guys I could find if they'd take $500 to show up at the guy's house and scare the living crap out of him. Escalate accordingly. There aren't that many situations left in this country that call for intimidation / violence, but malicious litigation is one of them.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
I dunno, man, as cathartic as that sounds, it reminds me of the old schoolyard bully tactic: pick on a kid until they punch you, then show the teacher your bloody nose.
- vinceguidry 10y ago
  When I was in high school, a big kid decided to use me as a verbal punching bag off and on for like two years. It didn't particularly bug me, he didn't do it often enough to cause me to want to retaliate, I'd endured worse in middle school, but it was annoying. Junior year I decided to teach him a lesson. We were making presentations for science class and you know how they have the steps of the scientific method? Well, for the hypothesis I spontaneously opted to, out of nowhere, rip him a new one in front of the whole class, tying the experiment to the fact that he was a giant fat-ass. He jumped up and came for me, the class held him back, I got a tongue lashing from the teacher, and he never bugged me again. We even worked together on a shop project later on that year. Some people are taught respect by their parents, others have to have it taught to them by strangers. I'm pretty good at that when I need to be.
  - erichocean 10y ago
    I had a similar experience. In 7th grade, I was fairly small in size (almost 6'2" today) and a relatively larger kid used to come into my history class late most days. He'd pass by my desk, behind my chair, and "push it" each day. After school, I got similar verbal harassment from the same guy while with his friends while walking home. Long story short, I got sick of it and one day in History class, grabbed the sides of my chair and waited for him to push it as he walked by. When he did, I sprang up rapidly while holding my chair and pushed back, flipping him over the desk behind me. Huge disruption to the class, etc. Teacher looked over, made no expression, and continued teaching the class. Never heard a peep from the guy after school the rest of the year, and that was the last time he touched my chair. :)
fao_ 10y ago
The problem with that is that they can sue for assault, intimidation, harassment, or any other valid laws that apply in those circumstances. Thus landing you not only a large lawsuit, but also a possible criminal charge as well. If you want laws against malicious litigation, campaign for them, but intimidating people because you believe the litigation to be malicious is childish at best.
- vinceguidry 10y ago
  The point of the intimidation is to encourage him to pick softer targets. If he insists on continuing to pick on me, then I will escalate, making his life a living hell. He lives somewhere, he works somewhere, everybody has weak points that you can exploit. Eventually he'll say 'uncle', it's just a matter of when. If he's smart he'll do it before his wife's car reeks of fish. (I will have already 'fished' his car so his wife will understand that this is now her problem as well)
  - panglott 10y ago
    The guy has devoted his life to harassing people through litigation. I assume it's profitable enough to keep him in beer & Skittles. Your plan is to become an even more dedicated troll than he is, but doing direct intimidation and violence instead of legal harassment? Sounds like a good way to get a felony conviction.
    - vinceguidry 10y ago
      > The guy has devoted his life to harassing people through litigation. Exactly. He's probably not that well-versed in physical security. Maybe he's got a gun he shoots once in awhile, that's probably going to be the extent of his precautions. He's not going to be some unassailable hermit with aggressively unreasonable defenses. Guys like that are too busy doing that to earn law degrees. So I can learn how to effectively harass him faster than he's going to be able to learn how to effectively defend himself. He might be able to win a judgment against me, but not before I've reduced his life to a shambles. John Boyd, considered by many to be the finest military strategist since Sun Tzu, invented something called the OODA loop. Essentially, the faster you can react and respond to opposing threats, the more control you can exert over the terrain, the greater command you have over the outcome of the battle. Winning is just the start. John Boyd was one of the greatest pilots who ever lived, and he didn't just beat you in simulated air combat, he utterly trounced you in a way that left no doubt. If faced with somebody seriously threatening my lifestyle, my secret weapon isn't going to be my willingness to fight dirtier, it's the fact that my 'weapons' work faster than his. The first intimidation attempt is going to communicate, in a way that's absolutely impossible to mistake, that we're not just playing law here. The pen might be mightier than the sword, but only because it's backed up by guys with swords. If you don't have any of those, then you're going to lose, and he won't until he wins his case. The communication here will be calculated to be overwhelming and total, yet breaking only the minimum of laws. I'd trade a criminal case for assault, the state is going to be more reasonable than this asshole is, over what was described in the article. If he doesn't go away, then that means I failed and I need to know why. I will have already considered the failure modes as a part of planning the initial intervention. Future interventions will be carefully orchestrated to hit him hard where it hurts while causing a minimum amount of attention-grabbing collateral damage. The idea is that if he complains to law enforcement, they won't have much to prosecute me with. (faced with this, I'll absolutely start making some cop friends, guaranteed they're going to hate him more than they'll hate me. Their input on how to resolve this would be very welcome) I don't have to actually break laws in order to convey the fact that I am not someone to be fucked with. I can attenuate my response such that likely reprisals are easier to deal with than the actions they were intending to deter. The idea though, is that he just finds a softer target.
nickpsecurity 10y ago
I agree under 2nd Amendment authority. All others have to be exhausted, though, before that can apply. So, first try your Congress people about passing laws limiting it. See if the LEO's will do anything about the abuse. Try the courts. If they all ignore the corrupt behavior, you're left with no choice but using violence to deter the aggressor. Just make it untraceable with an alibi.
- vinceguidry 10y ago
  It's definitely worth a few phone calls, I personally have some connected people I could turn to if I ever had to deal with something like this, but I didn't always. What makes violence a viable option is the fact that you're dealing with one person and not an organization. If it's more than one person's efforts you have to counter, then yielding is the better recourse. A group of people will have a goal in mind when taking action against you, all you have to do is help them reach that goal and they'll bugger off. You can fight a group effectively but it's generally not worth it.
mikestew 10y ago
I'm not condoning violence in my observation here, but I know how the world works. And this reminds me that dude in NYC selling sunglasses that turned out to be a sham, and who was intimidating customers who complained: keep it up long enough, and I'll be surprised that your knee caps remain in like-new condition. Thankfully, speaking from the point of view of maintaining the fabric of society, the real world isn't like TV and movies and the odds of pissing off a genuine bad ass are slim (anonymous Internet tough guys like myself don't count). But $30K is beginning to look like "real money", and for some folks under some circumstances, physical violence begins to look like a viable solution to the problem. And truth be told, the less enlightened side of me says, "that dude needs a good ass kickin'."
BuckRogers 10y ago
I've actually done similar things to that, many times. I come from "salt of the Earth" folks like you describe. I'm a programmer and all around nice guy, I hold doors for folks. I'll walk out of my way to go open the door for you if your hands are full everytime. And just last night a drunk driver ran into a parked car outside, it wasn't one of mine but I went out and took photos of everything for whoevers car it was (including of the perps license plate that fell on the ground). I gave a statement to the police about it today. I always take time out of my day to help a random person. The poor girl whose car it was hugged and hugged me, she said "people don't do that". I just shrugged. I grew up working on a farm, fairly Earth-salty midwest guy. I'm not a self proclaimed tough guy, I'm actually pretty soft but probably hard by today's standards. My brother is far more rough and tumble than I am. I do have a lot of stories, but I've done just what you describe. I had a TV stolen when I was in college, I generally knew who did it. I got my band of merry men together, knocked on the door and when they let us in, we blasted in turning it upside down searching the apartment for the TV. One of the occupants pulled a gun out on us, we took it from his hands and beat him to the ground with it. Then we tossed it outside into the snow and continued to pound on the guys. The TV didn't end up being there, but they knew who took it. They were at their house the night it disappeared. They called who stole it and allegedly said, "I think these guys mean business". That was correct. We were going to hunt them down like animals at their next bonfire/party they had planned and it was going to be very bad for them. And we weren't going to stop there. Needless to say, I had a brand new TV in the box on my doorstep at 9:30PM that night! Problem solved and I shook on it with one of the guys who stole it. They were drunk and broke in to steal it, I just wanted my TV back. I've protected many men who have done me harm, financially and physically from being harmed by calling off my goons who wanted to come after people in different situations. They simply hadn't earned what was coming their way so I prevented it. All that said, this guy if he had done this little racket to my family he would be in very serious trouble. I normally do absolutely zero questionable behavior, I'm absolutely by the book day to day. At work, I'm a non-toxic angel who would never step on anyones toes. I keep my head down, work a hard, honest 8 hours and mind my own business. I'm not even a condescending smartass or funny-guy little punk like most people try to be. I'm live and let live. But I would haunt this man for the rest of his days. Likely me, my brother and many others who are big, strong midwest giants who are not nice. I've been screwed over in life in many situations, I do not retaliate like this ever or normally. But stuff like this story is beyond the pale. You're right, people like this need to be handled correctly. This eastern European is one of the people who are not to be dealt with in court. He'd realize we do not live in "new age" where you can say and do what you want to. Something can happen to you. Worse than any stupid Anonymous online hack or geek vengeance. He's laughing at us here in the USA, but I assure you it's not safe for people like him. This Ukrainian guy simply got very lucky with picking the right victims. If my brother called me in on a situation like this, this Euro trash would be haunted physically, mentally, and materially for the rest of his life. The immigrant plays with fire that he doesn't fully understand. We do not live in a New Age, where you are safe. Things can happen to you.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago

I dunno, man, as cathartic as that sounds, it reminds me of the old schoolyard bully tactic: pick on a kid until they punch you, then show the teacher your bloody nose.

vinceguidry 10y ago
When I was in high school, a big kid decided to use me as a verbal punching bag off and on for like two years. It didn't particularly bug me, he didn't do it often enough to cause me to want to retaliate, I'd endured worse in middle school, but it was annoying. Junior year I decided to teach him a lesson. We were making presentations for science class and you know how they have the steps of the scientific method? Well, for the hypothesis I spontaneously opted to, out of nowhere, rip him a new one in front of the whole class, tying the experiment to the fact that he was a giant fat-ass. He jumped up and came for me, the class held him back, I got a tongue lashing from the teacher, and he never bugged me again. We even worked together on a shop project later on that year. Some people are taught respect by their parents, others have to have it taught to them by strangers. I'm pretty good at that when I need to be.
- erichocean 10y ago
  I had a similar experience. In 7th grade, I was fairly small in size (almost 6'2" today) and a relatively larger kid used to come into my history class late most days. He'd pass by my desk, behind my chair, and "push it" each day. After school, I got similar verbal harassment from the same guy while with his friends while walking home. Long story short, I got sick of it and one day in History class, grabbed the sides of my chair and waited for him to push it as he walked by. When he did, I sprang up rapidly while holding my chair and pushed back, flipping him over the desk behind me. Huge disruption to the class, etc. Teacher looked over, made no expression, and continued teaching the class. Never heard a peep from the guy after school the rest of the year, and that was the last time he touched my chair. :)

fao_ 10y ago

The problem with that is that they can sue for assault, intimidation, harassment, or any other valid laws that apply in those circumstances. Thus landing you not only a large lawsuit, but also a possible criminal charge as well. If you want laws against malicious litigation, campaign for them, but intimidating people because you believe the litigation to be malicious is childish at best.

vinceguidry 10y ago
The point of the intimidation is to encourage him to pick softer targets. If he insists on continuing to pick on me, then I will escalate, making his life a living hell. He lives somewhere, he works somewhere, everybody has weak points that you can exploit. Eventually he'll say 'uncle', it's just a matter of when. If he's smart he'll do it before his wife's car reeks of fish. (I will have already 'fished' his car so his wife will understand that this is now her problem as well)
- panglott 10y ago
  The guy has devoted his life to harassing people through litigation. I assume it's profitable enough to keep him in beer & Skittles. Your plan is to become an even more dedicated troll than he is, but doing direct intimidation and violence instead of legal harassment? Sounds like a good way to get a felony conviction.
  - vinceguidry 10y ago
    > The guy has devoted his life to harassing people through litigation. Exactly. He's probably not that well-versed in physical security. Maybe he's got a gun he shoots once in awhile, that's probably going to be the extent of his precautions. He's not going to be some unassailable hermit with aggressively unreasonable defenses. Guys like that are too busy doing that to earn law degrees. So I can learn how to effectively harass him faster than he's going to be able to learn how to effectively defend himself. He might be able to win a judgment against me, but not before I've reduced his life to a shambles. John Boyd, considered by many to be the finest military strategist since Sun Tzu, invented something called the OODA loop. Essentially, the faster you can react and respond to opposing threats, the more control you can exert over the terrain, the greater command you have over the outcome of the battle. Winning is just the start. John Boyd was one of the greatest pilots who ever lived, and he didn't just beat you in simulated air combat, he utterly trounced you in a way that left no doubt. If faced with somebody seriously threatening my lifestyle, my secret weapon isn't going to be my willingness to fight dirtier, it's the fact that my 'weapons' work faster than his. The first intimidation attempt is going to communicate, in a way that's absolutely impossible to mistake, that we're not just playing law here. The pen might be mightier than the sword, but only because it's backed up by guys with swords. If you don't have any of those, then you're going to lose, and he won't until he wins his case. The communication here will be calculated to be overwhelming and total, yet breaking only the minimum of laws. I'd trade a criminal case for assault, the state is going to be more reasonable than this asshole is, over what was described in the article. If he doesn't go away, then that means I failed and I need to know why. I will have already considered the failure modes as a part of planning the initial intervention. Future interventions will be carefully orchestrated to hit him hard where it hurts while causing a minimum amount of attention-grabbing collateral damage. The idea is that if he complains to law enforcement, they won't have much to prosecute me with. (faced with this, I'll absolutely start making some cop friends, guaranteed they're going to hate him more than they'll hate me. Their input on how to resolve this would be very welcome) I don't have to actually break laws in order to convey the fact that I am not someone to be fucked with. I can attenuate my response such that likely reprisals are easier to deal with than the actions they were intending to deter. The idea though, is that he just finds a softer target.

nickpsecurity 10y ago

I agree under 2nd Amendment authority. All others have to be exhausted, though, before that can apply. So, first try your Congress people about passing laws limiting it. See if the LEO's will do anything about the abuse. Try the courts. If they all ignore the corrupt behavior, you're left with no choice but using violence to deter the aggressor. Just make it untraceable with an alibi.

vinceguidry 10y ago
It's definitely worth a few phone calls, I personally have some connected people I could turn to if I ever had to deal with something like this, but I didn't always. What makes violence a viable option is the fact that you're dealing with one person and not an organization. If it's more than one person's efforts you have to counter, then yielding is the better recourse. A group of people will have a goal in mind when taking action against you, all you have to do is help them reach that goal and they'll bugger off. You can fight a group effectively but it's generally not worth it.

mikestew 10y ago

I'm not condoning violence in my observation here, but I know how the world works. And this reminds me that dude in NYC selling sunglasses that turned out to be a sham, and who was intimidating customers who complained: keep it up long enough, and I'll be surprised that your knee caps remain in like-new condition. Thankfully, speaking from the point of view of maintaining the fabric of society, the real world isn't like TV and movies and the odds of pissing off a genuine bad ass are slim (anonymous Internet tough guys like myself don't count). But $30K is beginning to look like "real money", and for some folks under some circumstances, physical violence begins to look like a viable solution to the problem. And truth be told, the less enlightened side of me says, "that dude needs a good ass kickin'."

BuckRogers 10y ago

I've actually done similar things to that, many times. I come from "salt of the Earth" folks like you describe. I'm a programmer and all around nice guy, I hold doors for folks. I'll walk out of my way to go open the door for you if your hands are full everytime. And just last night a drunk driver ran into a parked car outside, it wasn't one of mine but I went out and took photos of everything for whoevers car it was (including of the perps license plate that fell on the ground). I gave a statement to the police about it today. I always take time out of my day to help a random person. The poor girl whose car it was hugged and hugged me, she said "people don't do that". I just shrugged. I grew up working on a farm, fairly Earth-salty midwest guy. I'm not a self proclaimed tough guy, I'm actually pretty soft but probably hard by today's standards. My brother is far more rough and tumble than I am. I do have a lot of stories, but I've done just what you describe. I had a TV stolen when I was in college, I generally knew who did it. I got my band of merry men together, knocked on the door and when they let us in, we blasted in turning it upside down searching the apartment for the TV. One of the occupants pulled a gun out on us, we took it from his hands and beat him to the ground with it. Then we tossed it outside into the snow and continued to pound on the guys. The TV didn't end up being there, but they knew who took it. They were at their house the night it disappeared. They called who stole it and allegedly said, "I think these guys mean business". That was correct. We were going to hunt them down like animals at their next bonfire/party they had planned and it was going to be very bad for them. And we weren't going to stop there. Needless to say, I had a brand new TV in the box on my doorstep at 9:30PM that night! Problem solved and I shook on it with one of the guys who stole it. They were drunk and broke in to steal it, I just wanted my TV back. I've protected many men who have done me harm, financially and physically from being harmed by calling off my goons who wanted to come after people in different situations. They simply hadn't earned what was coming their way so I prevented it. All that said, this guy if he had done this little racket to my family he would be in very serious trouble. I normally do absolutely zero questionable behavior, I'm absolutely by the book day to day. At work, I'm a non-toxic angel who would never step on anyones toes. I keep my head down, work a hard, honest 8 hours and mind my own business. I'm not even a condescending smartass or funny-guy little punk like most people try to be. I'm live and let live. But I would haunt this man for the rest of his days. Likely me, my brother and many others who are big, strong midwest giants who are not nice. I've been screwed over in life in many situations, I do not retaliate like this ever or normally. But stuff like this story is beyond the pale. You're right, people like this need to be handled correctly. This eastern European is one of the people who are not to be dealt with in court. He'd realize we do not live in "new age" where you can say and do what you want to. Something can happen to you. Worse than any stupid Anonymous online hack or geek vengeance. He's laughing at us here in the USA, but I assure you it's not safe for people like him. This Ukrainian guy simply got very lucky with picking the right victims. If my brother called me in on a situation like this, this Euro trash would be haunted physically, mentally, and materially for the rest of his life. The immigrant plays with fire that he doesn't fully understand. We do not live in a New Age, where you are safe. Things can happen to you.