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Why do you say "and yet" - since such generic "advice" is useless so is the conclusion "and yet they get it wrong!" (I told you something useless - why doesn't

Why do you say "and yet" - since such generic "advice" is useless so is the conclusion "and yet they get it wrong!" (I told you something useless - why doesn't it help?)

sillysaurus3 10y ago
Because if you follow this advice, you're more likely to yield a successful product. Playtesting isn't useless. It's how fun games are made. Perhaps people are disagreeing with this because they haven't tried to make a game. A curious phenomenon.
- LionessLover 10y ago
  You simultaneously complain the advice is generic and claim it's useful. You always bet on both colors in roulette? No, generic advice is not useful. It's... too generic.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- squeaky-clean 10y ago
  But that's not advice. It's the same as telling a video game player that to win you need to "get a higher score than the enemy" and "play really well". And when someone loses, "I gave them such great advice, and yet they messed it up!" "Listen to your users" is not advice, it's the end goal. What's the most effective way to listen to your users? Professional playtesting? Open alpha/beta? Forums, IRC channel, a subreddit? Frequently scheduled AMA with the devs? Infrequently scheduled AMA with the devs?
  - sillysaurus3 10y ago
    Play the game. When you notice something isn't fun, remove that thing. Repeat. That's playtesting. If you want to watch someone doing this, pull up some videos of Notch making games. That's the process he follows constantly, from start to finish. He also has good taste, which is why his games turn out well. If you don't have a nose for what's fun and what isn't, you have to take feedback from your users. If it's a multiplayer game, you should take feedback from the most competitive users, ideally from the people who are trying to form pro tournaments around your game. Casual players don't care what you do to the game, because it doesn't affect them much. But competitive players are your lifeblood, even if you don't know it yet. A competitive scene is what carries a game after its shelf-life has expired.
    - ekianjo 10y ago
      "Noticing something is not fun" is the archetype of non specific advice. There are tons of games i dont find fun yet many are very popular and other folks seem to enjoy them. And even then even if you do playtesting you need to ensure your sample is representative and things like that. Playtesting is key but its far from being a simple step in itself and it never tells you exactly what is the right solution to fix things. Thats why making games is hard.

Why do you say "and yet" - since such generic "advice" is useless so is the conclusion "and yet they get it wrong!" (I told you something useless - why doesn't it help?)

sillysaurus3 10y ago

Because if you follow this advice, you're more likely to yield a successful product. Playtesting isn't useless. It's how fun games are made. Perhaps people are disagreeing with this because they haven't tried to make a game. A curious phenomenon.

LionessLover 10y ago
You simultaneously complain the advice is generic and claim it's useful. You always bet on both colors in roulette? No, generic advice is not useful. It's... too generic.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
squeaky-clean 10y ago
But that's not advice. It's the same as telling a video game player that to win you need to "get a higher score than the enemy" and "play really well". And when someone loses, "I gave them such great advice, and yet they messed it up!" "Listen to your users" is not advice, it's the end goal. What's the most effective way to listen to your users? Professional playtesting? Open alpha/beta? Forums, IRC channel, a subreddit? Frequently scheduled AMA with the devs? Infrequently scheduled AMA with the devs?
- sillysaurus3 10y ago
  Play the game. When you notice something isn't fun, remove that thing. Repeat. That's playtesting. If you want to watch someone doing this, pull up some videos of Notch making games. That's the process he follows constantly, from start to finish. He also has good taste, which is why his games turn out well. If you don't have a nose for what's fun and what isn't, you have to take feedback from your users. If it's a multiplayer game, you should take feedback from the most competitive users, ideally from the people who are trying to form pro tournaments around your game. Casual players don't care what you do to the game, because it doesn't affect them much. But competitive players are your lifeblood, even if you don't know it yet. A competitive scene is what carries a game after its shelf-life has expired.
  - ekianjo 10y ago
    "Noticing something is not fun" is the archetype of non specific advice. There are tons of games i dont find fun yet many are very popular and other folks seem to enjoy them. And even then even if you do playtesting you need to ensure your sample is representative and things like that. Playtesting is key but its far from being a simple step in itself and it never tells you exactly what is the right solution to fix things. Thats why making games is hard.