5 ms·

They wouldn't have to do this if they would just make the next version of windows better than the previous versions. Technically they usually are, but then man

by snarfy 10y ago

They wouldn't have to do this if they would just make the next version of windows better than the previous versions. Technically they usually are, but then management starts making decisions about what is best. Not what is best for the user, what is best for Microsoft. If they just focused on the users, it would all work itself out. People would want to upgrade. Instead we get to login to our local machine with a Microsoft account, data tracking, etc. These are all things good for Microsoft.

Piskvorrr 10y ago
As far from an MS fanboy as I am, this is one thing I need to disagree on: WinX, from my experience, seems like a well-made system; at least on fresh installs. The spying "features" can all be disabled (apparently), and function all-local, no MS account required. The botch (which just keeps getting worse) is the forced-by-any-means upgrade; if you have an upgrade path planned, and you're in the middle of testing, having all the workstations pull the rug from under you (because "This is where you want to go today!") is, IMNSHO, borderline criminal. In other words: We had wanted to upgrade. Within weeks. Now we're dug in the trenches, locked down and hoping we didn't miss one of the upgrade backdoors; the upgrade plan is, of course, scrapped altogether. In a sentence: COMPLETE LOSS OF TRUST.
- cm3 10y ago
  The data collectors can be disabled, but MS has renamed services or otherwise introduced remedies to prevent disabling of the collectors, and therefore it's safe to distrust in that regard.
  - dd9990 10y ago
    Only Entreprise customers can fully opt out of all data collection. [1] All other users can only disable a subset and their PCs will submit "Basic Telemetry" regardless of what they do. Microsoft has defended this: " Windows 10 still phones home to Microsoft with telemetry data including an anonymous device ID, information about the type of device that's being used, and data from application crashes. That sort of data has been key to solving problems with the operating system and other applications, according to an explanation published Monday from Microsoft Corporate Vice President Terry Myerson." [1] http://www.infoworld.com/article/2987175/microsoft-windows/microsoft-will-let-business-users-opt-out-of-windows-10-tracking.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/2987175/microsoft-windows/m...
    - WayneBro 10y ago
      This is incorrect. You can absolutely turn it off - http://winaero.com/blog/how-to-disable-telemetry-and-data-collection-in-windows-10/ http://winaero.com/blog/how-to-disable-telemetry-and-data-co...
      - dd9990 10y ago
        Undocumented registry edits based on peoples guesses and other hacks from random blogs are not a solution. Microsoft has used updates to change service and update names related to Telemetry already. Some of the "tips" in the comments are also wrong, like using the hosts file to block certain domains which Telemetry services don't respect. Unless it's a documented method from Microsoft it doesn't count. Their stated aim is that all non-Enterprise customer will take part in "Basic" telemetry. Until they change that stance, random hacks from the blogosphere are at best unreliable and at worst dangerous and give a false sense of privacy and security.
        WayneBro 10y ago
        > Unless it's a documented method from Microsoft it doesn't count. Oh, I didn't realize that we were playing a board game. No, in real life when something actually works...people can use it. The registry edit does indeed work. I've used it. Plenty of people use it. So yeah - that does too count. Apple doesn't support HomeBrew and tons of other things that developers do on OS X, but nobody sits there and says "that doesn't count". Linux distros don't support every single configuration that Linux users put in...but nobody says "it doesn't count".
        cm3 10y ago
        The difference is that Apple doesn't actively try to prevent Homebrew from working, while Microsoft has issued updates with the purpose to rename NT services and other things, in order to defeat the workarounds.
- Silhouette 10y ago
  The spying "features" can all be disabled (apparently), and function all-local, no MS account required. Even if that is all true today -- and I'm expressing no view here on whether it is -- with mandatory updates there is no guarantee anything will continue to work the same way tomorrow. If there is one thing Microsoft has proved beyond any doubt over the past few months, it is that we can't trust it not to abuse Windows updates. This is why the trust issue has become a major PR problem, though I suspect many in senior management at MS are still in denial about how bad that problem really is.
- zxcvcxz 10y ago
  >WinX, from my experience, seems like a well-made system; I've had the opposite experience. The OS that's supposed to have all the drivers didn't have all the drivers and I know a ton of people who were stuck without wifi (and a few who could not even connect through ethernet), had graphics problems which basically made their OS unusable, had all sorts of performance issues (especially on small netbooks that auto upgraded), the list could just go on. You shouldn't have to disable spyware when installing an OS. You shouldn't have to install powershell to remove candy crush (which is what you had to do when Win10 first came out). You shouldn't have to uninstall adware on a new OS. You shouldn't need an SSD and other newer/high-end hardware to run an OS, especially when other operating systems run flawlessly on low-end hardware. Nah, Windows is a trash OS and it seems like the only people who use it are people who are forced to because of program compatibility.
  - Piskvorrr 10y ago
    That is the run-of-the-mill set of issues I've had with any Windows upgrade, and something I'd be willing to dismiss as teething problems: usually not MS's fault but the OEM's (especially drivers and shovelware); plus the HW requirements didn't go up so dramatically, compared to W7. The "spy on everything" and "you MUST have cloud" attitude are actual OS issues, I agree.
  - AnkhMorporkian 10y ago
    > Nah, Windows is a trash OS and it seems like the only people who use it are people who are forced to because of program compatibility. I was on linux for 10+ years, and I switched to Windows after they released 10 because I was truly happy with it after trying the tech preview. The program compatibility is just a bonus. Almost all of my family uses Windows over OS X because they can't stand the weird ass intentionally hobbled UI of OSX.
    - idobai 10y ago
      Excuse me, but if there is a "weird ass intentionally hobbled UI" then that's the windows UI. ms was never able to create a proper DE.
- falcolas 10y ago
  Given that I use my Windows machine solely for gaming these days, the fact that I am not allowed to disable the real time virus scan permanently is a mark against Windows being a well made system. It's a notable loss of control over my system. > The spying "features" can all be disabled I've yet to find a way to disable the telemetry on a non-enterprise system. I'd appreciate any links to instructions on how to do this.
  - snarfy 10y ago
    To disable real time virus scan permanently you can boot into safe mode and then rename/delete C:\Program Files\Windows Defender\MsMpEng.exe
    - ryankey721 10y ago
      I appreciate knowing how to do this, but I don't think booting into safe mode and deleting an exe counts as being "allowed" to disable scanning. It's a workaround, but definitely not a solution from MS.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - Piskvorrr 10y ago
    Ouch. That's worse than I thought. Well, one more item in the "risks" column; not that it matters anymore (being 1001th such item, where the tipping point was at 200 ;)).
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
Silhouette 10y ago
They wouldn't have to do this if they would just make the next version of windows better than the previous versions. Indeed. I made a similar argument when Adobe went subscription-only with Creative Cloud. That move seems like a clear signal to customers that Adobe thinks locking those customers in is more valuable than whatever new features or performance improvements or bug fixes Adobe is going to offer, since if the latter were more valuable then presumably customers would have been willing to pay for a new version and choose to install it anyway.
WayneBro 10y ago
> If they would just make the next version of windows better than the previous versions. They've done that. Every single time. That's why Windows is the most widely used desktop OS on the planet. On the desktop, it's better than OS X and it's better than Linux and if you disagree then you're obviously out of whack with the rest of the world's priorities because everybody uses Windows and they do so because Windows gives them what they want. Yes, Windows 10 has some annoyances - just like every other OS in existence. Big deal. Windows has absolutely gotten better with each version. I've been using it since Windows 3 and honestly, saying that Windows hasn't gotten better with each version makes it seem like you have no clue at all what you're talking about. Also, to the people complaining that you can't turn things off: You've been misinformed. You can turn off every single item that has been discussed and you can do it without "booting into safe-mode to delete an exe" for instance - http://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/3569-windows-defender-real-time-protection-turn-off-windows-10-a.html http://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/3569-windows-defender-rea...

by snarfy 10y ago

Piskvorrr 10y ago

As far from an MS fanboy as I am, this is one thing I need to disagree on: WinX, from my experience, seems like a well-made system; at least on fresh installs. The spying "features" can all be disabled (apparently), and function all-local, no MS account required. The botch (which just keeps getting worse) is the forced-by-any-means upgrade; if you have an upgrade path planned, and you're in the middle of testing, having all the workstations pull the rug from under you (because "This is where you want to go today!") is, IMNSHO, borderline criminal. In other words: We had wanted to upgrade. Within weeks. Now we're dug in the trenches, locked down and hoping we didn't miss one of the upgrade backdoors; the upgrade plan is, of course, scrapped altogether. In a sentence: COMPLETE LOSS OF TRUST.

cm3 10y ago
The data collectors can be disabled, but MS has renamed services or otherwise introduced remedies to prevent disabling of the collectors, and therefore it's safe to distrust in that regard.
- dd9990 10y ago
  Only Entreprise customers can fully opt out of all data collection. [1] All other users can only disable a subset and their PCs will submit "Basic Telemetry" regardless of what they do. Microsoft has defended this: " Windows 10 still phones home to Microsoft with telemetry data including an anonymous device ID, information about the type of device that's being used, and data from application crashes. That sort of data has been key to solving problems with the operating system and other applications, according to an explanation published Monday from Microsoft Corporate Vice President Terry Myerson." [1] http://www.infoworld.com/article/2987175/microsoft-windows/microsoft-will-let-business-users-opt-out-of-windows-10-tracking.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/2987175/microsoft-windows/m...
  - WayneBro 10y ago
    This is incorrect. You can absolutely turn it off - http://winaero.com/blog/how-to-disable-telemetry-and-data-collection-in-windows-10/ http://winaero.com/blog/how-to-disable-telemetry-and-data-co...
    - dd9990 10y ago
      Undocumented registry edits based on peoples guesses and other hacks from random blogs are not a solution. Microsoft has used updates to change service and update names related to Telemetry already. Some of the "tips" in the comments are also wrong, like using the hosts file to block certain domains which Telemetry services don't respect. Unless it's a documented method from Microsoft it doesn't count. Their stated aim is that all non-Enterprise customer will take part in "Basic" telemetry. Until they change that stance, random hacks from the blogosphere are at best unreliable and at worst dangerous and give a false sense of privacy and security.
      - WayneBro 10y ago
        > Unless it's a documented method from Microsoft it doesn't count. Oh, I didn't realize that we were playing a board game. No, in real life when something actually works...people can use it. The registry edit does indeed work. I've used it. Plenty of people use it. So yeah - that does too count. Apple doesn't support HomeBrew and tons of other things that developers do on OS X, but nobody sits there and says "that doesn't count". Linux distros don't support every single configuration that Linux users put in...but nobody says "it doesn't count".
        cm3 10y ago
        The difference is that Apple doesn't actively try to prevent Homebrew from working, while Microsoft has issued updates with the purpose to rename NT services and other things, in order to defeat the workarounds.
Silhouette 10y ago
The spying "features" can all be disabled (apparently), and function all-local, no MS account required. Even if that is all true today -- and I'm expressing no view here on whether it is -- with mandatory updates there is no guarantee anything will continue to work the same way tomorrow. If there is one thing Microsoft has proved beyond any doubt over the past few months, it is that we can't trust it not to abuse Windows updates. This is why the trust issue has become a major PR problem, though I suspect many in senior management at MS are still in denial about how bad that problem really is.
zxcvcxz 10y ago
>WinX, from my experience, seems like a well-made system; I've had the opposite experience. The OS that's supposed to have all the drivers didn't have all the drivers and I know a ton of people who were stuck without wifi (and a few who could not even connect through ethernet), had graphics problems which basically made their OS unusable, had all sorts of performance issues (especially on small netbooks that auto upgraded), the list could just go on. You shouldn't have to disable spyware when installing an OS. You shouldn't have to install powershell to remove candy crush (which is what you had to do when Win10 first came out). You shouldn't have to uninstall adware on a new OS. You shouldn't need an SSD and other newer/high-end hardware to run an OS, especially when other operating systems run flawlessly on low-end hardware. Nah, Windows is a trash OS and it seems like the only people who use it are people who are forced to because of program compatibility.
- Piskvorrr 10y ago
  That is the run-of-the-mill set of issues I've had with any Windows upgrade, and something I'd be willing to dismiss as teething problems: usually not MS's fault but the OEM's (especially drivers and shovelware); plus the HW requirements didn't go up so dramatically, compared to W7. The "spy on everything" and "you MUST have cloud" attitude are actual OS issues, I agree.
- AnkhMorporkian 10y ago
  > Nah, Windows is a trash OS and it seems like the only people who use it are people who are forced to because of program compatibility. I was on linux for 10+ years, and I switched to Windows after they released 10 because I was truly happy with it after trying the tech preview. The program compatibility is just a bonus. Almost all of my family uses Windows over OS X because they can't stand the weird ass intentionally hobbled UI of OSX.
  - idobai 10y ago
    Excuse me, but if there is a "weird ass intentionally hobbled UI" then that's the windows UI. ms was never able to create a proper DE.
falcolas 10y ago
Given that I use my Windows machine solely for gaming these days, the fact that I am not allowed to disable the real time virus scan permanently is a mark against Windows being a well made system. It's a notable loss of control over my system. > The spying "features" can all be disabled I've yet to find a way to disable the telemetry on a non-enterprise system. I'd appreciate any links to instructions on how to do this.
- snarfy 10y ago
  To disable real time virus scan permanently you can boot into safe mode and then rename/delete C:\Program Files\Windows Defender\MsMpEng.exe
  - ryankey721 10y ago
    I appreciate knowing how to do this, but I don't think booting into safe mode and deleting an exe counts as being "allowed" to disable scanning. It's a workaround, but definitely not a solution from MS.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- Piskvorrr 10y ago
  Ouch. That's worse than I thought. Well, one more item in the "risks" column; not that it matters anymore (being 1001th such item, where the tipping point was at 200 ;)).
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

Silhouette 10y ago

They wouldn't have to do this if they would just make the next version of windows better than the previous versions. Indeed. I made a similar argument when Adobe went subscription-only with Creative Cloud. That move seems like a clear signal to customers that Adobe thinks locking those customers in is more valuable than whatever new features or performance improvements or bug fixes Adobe is going to offer, since if the latter were more valuable then presumably customers would have been willing to pay for a new version and choose to install it anyway.

WayneBro 10y ago

> If they would just make the next version of windows better than the previous versions. They've done that. Every single time. That's why Windows is the most widely used desktop OS on the planet. On the desktop, it's better than OS X and it's better than Linux and if you disagree then you're obviously out of whack with the rest of the world's priorities because everybody uses Windows and they do so because Windows gives them what they want. Yes, Windows 10 has some annoyances - just like every other OS in existence. Big deal. Windows has absolutely gotten better with each version. I've been using it since Windows 3 and honestly, saying that Windows hasn't gotten better with each version makes it seem like you have no clue at all what you're talking about. Also, to the people complaining that you can't turn things off: You've been misinformed. You can turn off every single item that has been discussed and you can do it without "booting into safe-mode to delete an exe" for instance - http://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/3569-windows-defender-real-time-protection-turn-off-windows-10-a.html http://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/3569-windows-defender-rea...