15 ms·

Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

131 points by byoogle 10y ago

byoogle 10y ago
Previously: 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11831629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11831629 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11837901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11837901
- smartbit 10y ago
  3. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842301 with this [0] notable comment "Now that Nick has written his story however, it goes back on the front page of HN and the comments here basically support it as totally credible. ... Don't get me wrong, I very very much think that Nick should write up his story and feelings. But I think a lot of people need to examine themselves closely for why they couldn't believe the women who shared their stories yesterday, but now can today." Jake doesn't mention Nick Farr's accusation. I've been missing Nick the last years at C3 too. Now I know Nick's side of the story, I wonder how the CCC Vorstand [1] and Jake react to censoring the Lightning Talk? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842977 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842977 [1] http://www.ccc.de/vorstand http://www.ccc.de/vorstand
  - petertodd 10y ago
    > "But I think a lot of people need to examine themselves closely for why they couldn't believe the women who shared their stories yesterday, but now can today." I think this shows how putting your reputation on the line when you accuse someone makes the accusation itself far more powerful and likely to believed; remember that no-one has yet publicly and non-anonymously(1) accused him of rape directly, but rather, have only said that others have accused him. I hope that if these allegations are true, people in addition to Nick Farr will have the bravery to go public with them - that's what's needed to actually put a stop to abusers. 1) In this context, "non-anonymously" includes commonly used pseudonyms of course - the legal names of people aren't what's important, but rather the identities they commonly use.
    - hackuser 10y ago
      > I think this shows how putting your reputation on the line when you accuse someone makes the accusation itself far more powerful and likely to believed I agree, but that has to be balanced with the costs, and especially the costs to rape victims.
  - zealotmonkey 10y ago
    In 2013, before, and during 30c3, Jacob Appelbaum suspected, and made claims, including one before the European Parliament, that he was under surveillance[0]. Since at least 2010, Jacob Appelbaum had been detained at airports and had his computer seized, multiple times. Despite this, Nick Farr, at 30c3, during the time period in which Jacob Applebaum heavily suspected he was under surveillance, and was presenting talks about classified NSA material, thought it would be friendly to permit a lightning talk that alleged that Jacob Applebaum was working for an intelligence agency, and then, without the actual talk happening, delete all records of that allegation when Applebaum, who thought he was under surveillance, requested information pertaining to that possibility. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Applebaum#Journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Applebaum#Journalism [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Applebaum#Detention_and_investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Applebaum#Detention_and_...
PollenBull 10y ago
Jacob was an asset to the community. I really want to believe him (hopefully time will tell)
- daxorid 10y ago
  If he was plagiarizing original research and raping other community members, he was most certainly not an asset to the community.
  - rndmind 10y ago
    He was an invaluable and founding member of the TOR community. I have deeply seated suspicions that something fishy is going on.
    - daxorid 10y ago
      I'm curious how he was 'invaluable' if the accusations of plagiarism are true. Other people are responsible for his contributions, in that case. The technically incompetent but socially competent taking credit away from where it is due ought to be a well understood phenomenon here at HN. Why give him a pass if this is the case as well?
- legodt 10y ago
  The destructive and destabilizing force of an abusive, possibly sexually, actor in a community, especially in an authority position has historically proven to be far more harmful to communities than whatever objective work they contribute. Bad actors engender the long term viability of a movement.
venomsnake 10y ago
> Not only have I been the target of a fake website in my name that has falsely accused me of serious crimes, but I have also received death threats (including a Twitter handle entitled ‘TimeToDieJake’). Credit where credit is due - the guy has learned his lesson about how to properly play the part of the social media victim.
- reverend 10y ago
  You probably have to explain, as I have a hard time to see him anything but a victim when there are obvious attacks aimed at him.
fgadsuhopmfup 10y ago
Any ideas on who would target him?
nabla9 10y ago
In cases like these, most people (like me) who read these exchanges have no idea what is true and what is not. Either there is rape or not. If not, there is libel and slander. In any case Internet publicity is not correct place to get justice.
- nisa 10y ago
  There is a pretty clear common theme displayed on the Twitter accounts of people that are in this community and know each other personally. These are also not outsiders but trusted members of the community. So far the response is either silence or acknowledgement of the accusations. This is not a trail but it looks like the attempt to remove a toxic person from this community to prevent harm to others. This does not mean that he is guilty of the accusations but a lot of persons related to CCC congress, hackers, Tor members univocally agree that it's a good idea to have him step down and exclude him. There seems to be enough personal backstories that everyone seem to agree it's the right thing to do. At least that's my impression from the outside. This is not some kind of government orchestrated smear campaign, rather an effort to prevent harm.
  - nabla9 10y ago
    >At least that's my impression from the outside. It has no value. We who are outsiders in the drama can't contribute and our impressions can be false. Some of use are just drawn into the drama and can't avoid taking sides. Creating impressions is how internet drama works.
    - powera 10y ago
      If outsiders can't contribute, why are you commenting on it (twice!) here?
      - mwfunk 10y ago
        Fine, contributing in the form of saying "we can't contribute here" is the one way in which we can contribute. Happy? That seems pretty obvious, no need to call people out for supposed double standards.
chris_wot 10y ago
I guess I'm just trying to understand why police weren't involved. There a story on the blog he refers to of him taking advantage of a woman when they were completely intoxicated and allegations she was raped by him and his friends.
- DanBC 10y ago
  Look how how rape victims are treated by police and the courts. It's not surprising that people are reluctant to report rape and sexual assault. Here's one, where the perpetrator was seen by other people assaulting someone who was passed out drunk: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/06/stanford-sexual-assault-case-victim-impact-statement-in-full?CMP=twt_gu http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/06/stanford-sexu... He still said the sex was consensual, and his lawyers put that women through hell.
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    That's sadly a fair comment.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - sievebrain 10y ago
    I guess you mean they're treated badly? The legal system in western countries is very biased in favour of rape accusers. Shield laws are a concrete manifestation of that. Often police are told to automatically believe any rape accusation even if their common sense is telling them it's likely to be false. And so on. Yes, if you make a serious accusation against someone, their defence lawyer is going to ask difficult questions. You're attempting to make their life literally hell, by jailing them for a long time. Being asked a few questions is in no way comparable.
    - openasocket 10y ago
      >The legal system in western countries is very biased in favour of rape accusers. This is patently false. Conviction rates for rape are far lower compared to other crimes[1] >Shield laws are a concrete manifestation of that Shield laws make it so news reporters cannot be forced to reveal their sources, I don't see what this has to do with rape cases. >Being asked a few questions is in no way comparable. Being forced to re-experience a traumatic event by a party determined to discredit you is pretty horrible. Also, you should look at the case linked. The accused was found assaulting the girl in an alley by third party witnesses, and received six months probation. [1]Kelly, Lovett and Regan, A gap or a chasm? Attrition in reported rape cases, 2005
rdl 10y ago
So far, the only thing I'm fairly sure of is the "jacobappelbaum.net" and "@DieJakeDie" social media efforts are doing more harm than good, and were a horrible idea. They might make a not-extremely-guilty person look worse than he is, or make a horrible person somehow sympathetic to people who think he's "also a victim", but they don't help.
- TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
  OK, what would you do, then? If the people he's exploited stay silent, then he can keep doing it! Going through the legal system isn't much help in a community which is distrustful of it. Complaining to the person in question, well, they've tried that, and it did nothing. And if they don't group their stories together, then it's harder for people to find the accusations against him. There is strength, and more importantly in this case, credibility, in numbers.
  - reitanqild 10y ago
    Report it to the police for one. (Ref Assange.)
    - Sanddancer 10y ago
      Reporting it to the police is an amazingly stressful process that requires you to relive it again and again, being tried in the public eye, opening yourself up to claims of being a slut, etc. Just being able to admit you were raped is a strength a lot of victims don't have.
      - Sacho 10y ago
        Creating a site that alleges you are a rapist is an amazingly stressful process for the presumed innocent person, requiring him to respond to a torrent of media and social hate and shunning, being tried in the public eye, open to claims of being a "monster", etc. You could argue you're "helping" more people by believing rape claims, but that's both mob rule(the rights of the many trample the rights of the few) and not necessarily stable in the long run. If people do not need to produce any evidence and feel no fear of reprisal, it's likely the rate of false accusations will climb as people learn to use them as a tool to bludgeon their adversaries.
44458427 10y ago
Now I feel bad for submitting fake stories to jacobappelbaum.net. I forgot he's a real person with feelings and emotions. Ah well, could be worse. Could be me at the receiving end of all this ire.
elcapitan 10y ago
Why did this post disappear from the front page? Can't find it on the first 20 or so pages listed neither.
- nikcub 10y ago
  Everything related to this story has been flagged off the front page and it's a shame
  - dang 10y ago
    In my experience, some people routinely believe any statement that takes this form, so it's good to be factually careful when making them. There have been three major discussions of this story, and two of them spent many hours on the front page, including yesterday. Those were flagged, but not "flagged off the front page".
- dang 10y ago
  It was flagged by users and set off some software penalties. I'm not convinced that this story belongs on Hacker News. The mandate of the site is "stories that gratify intellectual curiosity", and it seems pretty clear that both the curiosity and gratification here are more voyeuristic than intellectual. Arguably the appropriate scope for the story would be the smaller online community of people who are personally and professionally affected by it. On the other hand, the HN community is clearly interested, Tor is a longstanding topic here, the discussion has been better than it might (edit: though it has now gotten significantly worse), and if we're going to have it at all we shouldn't have only one side of it. So I've turned off flagging on this post and reduced the software penalties.
  - peterwwillis 10y ago
    But this doesn't have anything to do with Tor. A story that says "X is no longer working for Tor" would be fine, but this is clearly just dragging out the Paparazzi nature of famous people in a scandal.
    - 10y ago
justcommenting 10y ago
Former Tor Project Executive Director Andrew Lewman's perspective might be interesting on this topic, but the DailyDot story was the only one for which I've seen him quoted (https://www.dailydot.com/politics/jacob-appelbaum-tor-project-sexual-misconduct/ https://www.dailydot.com/politics/jacob-appelbaum-tor-projec...). Notably, Lewman volunteers at Transition House (http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/10/01/technology-used-as-weapon-in-domestic-abuse-cases/ http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/10/01/technology-used-as-wea...), founded IPVTech (Intimate Partner Violence tech), and appears to work/volunteer with other organizations associated with victims of domestic and/or sexual abuse (http://wiki.lewman.is/CV#work-with-trauma-victims-including-victims-of-domestic-abuseintimate-partner-violence http://wiki.lewman.is/CV#work-with-trauma-victims-including-...). Perhaps Lewman was unaware (this seems unlikely given the DailyDot article's reporting of "mishandling" or "botching" the situation), but it would surprise me if someone with that orientation turned a blind eye to the alleged behavior.
WhatIsThisIm12 10y ago
Personally I don't even think these stories should be on HN... nothing good can come from them because all anyone can offer is pure speculation. Now, in the interest of speculation, I have some conspiracy theories to suggest. Normally I wouldn't post conspiracy theories, but I think conspiracies have way more validity when you're talking about the security community. So, check out these links: - https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ - https://theintercept.com/document/2014/02/24/art-deception-training-new-generation-online-covert-operations/ https://theintercept.com/document/2014/02/24/art-deception-t... Then consider these conspiracy theories: 1) Jacob Appelbaum works for an intelligence service and was compromised, and this is their way of pulling him from the field 2) Jacob Appelbaum works for an intelligence service and was compromised, and this is a rival intelligence service's way of pulling him from the field 3) Jacob Appelbaum does not work for an intelligence service, but rather is the victim of a smearing campaign by an intelligence service My personal opinion is that the guy is an asshole, his (ex-)friends are fed up with him, and they severely overstepped their bounds in attacking him. The line about "what you have to do with a sociopath" (paraphrasing) was particularly alarming for me; that was a clear signal of desire for vindication.
captainmuon 10y ago
In cases like this where it is word against word, I think it is important as an outsider to hedge your bet. Act as if the allegations are true and false at the same time. Assuming they are true: make sure to create a safe space (virtually, in real live, and in discourse) for potential victims. Don't put the accused person on sensitive community functions. Take (this and further) accusations very seriously. If someone doesn't want to deal with him, don't push the matter and don't ask why. You want to avoid retraumatization of potential victims, and you want to create a climate where affected people can feel safe. You should give people raising these accusations the benefit of doubt, and resist the urge to dig for proof or to argue about what actually happened or not. Especially given how hard it is for victims to get recognition and justice by going through the "official" channels, i.e. court. (This is basically the idea that is discussed as "power of definition" among feminists in Germany; I'm not sure how it's referred to in other countries, a quick search didn't come up with much.) Assuming they are false: It's rarer than most people think that accusations of sexual abuse are falsely raised, but it is still a possibility. Especially given that he is a exposed public figure and possible target for "character assassination". Any scenario could be possible, from personal revenge to a smear campaign by an intelligence agency. One should protect oneself from this possibility, whether it is real or not. Don't exclude him from your communities. Don't stop using his software, don't judge or punish him. Don't give him the punishment of shunning. Basically you have to do an impossible balancing act. You don't want to perpetuate this patriarchal shit that lets men often get away with sexualized violence. But you also don't want whoever might be abusing this claim (agencies, personal enemies, ...) to win. So the only sane course is to be all about protection of victims, providing a safe space etc., but not punishing anybody.
- hackuser 10y ago
  I once was on a committee to craft a sexual assault and harassment policy for a small organization. It was an impossible task: You can't expose others, and especially the alleged victim, to a violent felon; imagine if they struck again! You also can't cost someone their job, residence, or reputation over an unsubstantiated allegation. And a small organization lacks the resources to do a valid investigation, conduct hearings, etc. You absolutely can and should treat the complainant with respect and support; nobody accused them of a crime and they should not be treated with suspicion or doubt.
bitL 10y ago
Seems like the only way to work on privacy projects in the future is to become voluntarily castrated...
- Natanael_L 10y ago
  Or staying anonymous
- GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
  "Don't rape anybody" is probably an easier way.
  - bitL 10y ago
    Given false claims epidemics you have in the US these days my solution seems the only feasible one that can stand up in court. Guess why Linus is never allowing a lone female to be alone with him even for a few seconds?
    - exolymph 10y ago
      > Given false claims epidemics you have in the US these days Citation needed.
      - retrogradeorbit 10y ago
        I don't think its an 'epidemic' as the poster exaggerated, but it does happen. I don't know about the US, but in Canada the Jian Ghomeshi trial is one recent example that comes to mind. Both the Ghomeshi trial and the Canadian trial of Gregory Alan Elliott show that there are indeed types of people out there who lie to bring charges, or increase the weight of charges bought against someone. And it shows they will lie all the way up to and through a court case, until cross examination (or in Elliott's case an insider tip off of conspiracy) unravel the lies. I don't know what to think in this case but it is not something you can rule out completely.
        10y ago
powera 10y ago
This Medium post summarizes my take on this statement better than I can. TLDR "I can’t directly say the allegations are false." https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060310#.fxsslnv0k https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060...
- SeanLuke 10y ago
  I don't understand that one. Does @frabyn not know that spurious means false?
  - sievebrain 10y ago
    It's a dumb article. Applebaum's statement says quite clearly "the claims are false" but this so-called analysis tries to argue it's the opposite.
  - acqq 10y ago
    > Does @frabyn not know that spurious means false? Does 'SeanLuke not know the following definitions of spurious? http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spurious http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spurious "of a deceitful nature or quality" "not genuine, sincere, or authentic" So Appelbaum can claim that he didn't exactly mean "false" (in a sense of "never happened") but "not sincere" (as in, "somebody instructed those people to tell that now, you know, the nasty governments that are after me") if presented with the proofs later. In short, read carefully yourself, take the dictionary and consider what was actually written and what wasn't. My impression, Franklin Bynum correctly recognized one weasel word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
- rmeyers 10y ago
  So another one in the Tor "community" behaves irresponsibly and childish. What a surprise. Open source projects are completely ruined these days by the ballast that surrounds them and drags them down.
  - daxorid 10y ago
geofft 10y ago
There's a good analysis of this statement at https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060310 https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060... that decodes the statement and points out what it says and doesn't say.
Chris2048 10y ago
> It's rarer than most people think that accusations of sexual abuse are falsely raised How do you determine this?
- Houshalter 10y ago
  According to this essay, about 3% of men will get falsely accused of rape in their lifetime: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/17/lies-damned-lies-and-social-media-part-5-of-∞/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/17/lies-damned-lies-and-so... The real number is impossible to determine, but is uncomfortably high.
  - hackuser 10y ago
    With due respect, this is a politically charged issue so I'm dubious of trusting random people, such as the author of that article. Are there more established sources around on this issue?
    - nickpsecurity 10y ago
      Google "rape conviction overturned DNA evidence." Happens too much.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        There were 67,000+ sexual assault convictions in 2012, and 18 overturned convictions. Would you like that as a percentage? That's 0.02%.
        nickpsecurity 10y ago
        Exactly. Convictions through the roof. That's why they should take it to court. Far as overturned, do you have data on how many got to prove something with DNA? Or conviction rate without it?
        10y ago
nickpsecurity 10y ago
Actually, with enough female witnesses it's usually easy to get a conviction out of a jury. Matter of fact, it's easy enough that men are regularly released when DNA evidence shows they were wrongly convicted based on one woman's word. This shouldve been sent to the police either with first event or once it became a trend. Instead, we have tweets, stylistic websites, and otherwise a full smear campaign going on pretending to protect people. If it's real, they need to take legal action to prove it. If proven, the guy is locked up. Only then is anyone protected. Suspicious they'll do anything but testify under oath.
- tptacek 10y ago
  This ginned-up gender conflict is neither germane nor relevant to the discussion; comments like these are a big part of the reason these Appelbaum threads on HN are so awful.
  - nickpsecurity 10y ago
    It's not gendered up at all. You just cited 60,000+ rape convictions. They claim this guy is a rapist. The site wants to stop more rapes. Nobody wants to go to police though. Others instead talk like that's infeasible with multiple eyewitnesses to multiple rapes. Im calling out that BS. This needs to be in court, not Twitter or HN.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      There are ways to suggest that this is a poor topic for online debate without arguing that rape victims who don't engage law enforcement are illegitimate. Unfortunately, it's hard to take that odious sentiment back now that you've put it out there.
      - nickpsecurity 10y ago
        I just did with a clarification. It's easy for any reader to understand my intent now. Whereas, what you say will be true for anyone biased against me or opposing me in discussion. Not winning them over anyway. No loss.
fredgrott 10y ago
What is strange: First, both the accusers and the accused should have their day in court. It should not be debated any other way. That being said the TOR project had an obligation to be transparent about this situation and failed to do so.. Some of us do in fact run open source projects and should we abide by TOR's example when we are confronted with the situation of accusations of illegal acts by a project contributor?
- hackuser 10y ago
  > the TOR project had an obligation to be transparent about this situation and failed to do so.. You can't always be transparent. * Publicizing a victim's rape, or their names, without their consent is considered publicly shaming them. It's a very bad idea. * Publicizing an accusation against someone that you can't substantiate, especially something very damaging to their reputation such as rape, could be slander. You could be sued (and rightfully so). * Publicizing any private HR issues is also often illegal and/or wrong.
- y7 10y ago
  Courts aren't about truth finding, they're about establishing whether there's enough evidence that a specific crime was committed. Something like Nick Farr's story[1] is, if true, not against the law, but it does display behaviour that can be really detrimental to a community. 1: https://medium.com/@nickf4rr/hi-im-nick-farr-nickf4rr-35c32f13da4d https://medium.com/@nickf4rr/hi-im-nick-farr-nickf4rr-35c32f...
- bsder 10y ago
  > should we abide by TOR's example when we are confronted with the situation of accusations of illegal acts So you fire anyone who gets accused of something? Hope you are a big fan of the Salem Witch Trials. The US operates on innocent until proven guilty for a reason.
throwaw11122334 10y ago
jacobappelbaum.net is hosted on github at: https://github.com/cephurs/jacobappelbaum.net https://github.com/cephurs/jacobappelbaum.net Cephurs was an op in a channel run by the law enforcement folks who took down LulzSec: http://www.xeroflux.net/uploads/Operation_Anon_Rat.pdf http://www.xeroflux.net/uploads/Operation_Anon_Rat.pdf Kinda suspicious.
- googlefushift2 10y ago
  https://defcongroups.org/dcpages.html https://defcongroups.org/dcpages.html
- grapehut 10y ago
  Totally can't be law enforcement, they forked the repo "FuckNSA".
devishard 10y ago
Quite frankly, why is this on Hacker News? Maybe Jacob Appelbaum raped someone, maybe he didn't. That's not anyone's business except Appelbaum's, his accusers', and the legal system's. It certainly is not a public concern, and it's irrelevant to Tor.
- y7 10y ago
  I found it interesting to read. Appelbaum is relatively well-known in tech circles, and I use HN to keep me updated on "what goes on in tech circles" -- whether that's gossip or new technological developments.
  - devishard 10y ago
    "I found it interesting to read" is not a particularly good reason to drag someone's name through the mud for crimes he hasn't been convicted of.
Fej 10y ago
I don't know who to believe anymore.
DyslexicAtheist 10y ago
jacobappelbaum.net is a fake: https://twitter.com/ValbonneConsult/status/740466050731499520 https://twitter.com/ValbonneConsult/status/74046605073149952... https://twitter.com/ValbonneConsult/status/740466297197232128 https://twitter.com/ValbonneConsult/status/74046629719723212... Also whatever he might have done will now be drowned out by these false accusations. Mob mentality is as bad as whatever he might have done.
- jubalfh 10y ago
  aren't you easily persuaded…

131 points by byoogle 10y ago

Previously: 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11831629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11831629 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11837901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11837901

smartbit 10y ago
3. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842301 with this [0] notable comment "Now that Nick has written his story however, it goes back on the front page of HN and the comments here basically support it as totally credible. ... Don't get me wrong, I very very much think that Nick should write up his story and feelings. But I think a lot of people need to examine themselves closely for why they couldn't believe the women who shared their stories yesterday, but now can today." Jake doesn't mention Nick Farr's accusation. I've been missing Nick the last years at C3 too. Now I know Nick's side of the story, I wonder how the CCC Vorstand [1] and Jake react to censoring the Lightning Talk? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842977 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842977 [1] http://www.ccc.de/vorstand http://www.ccc.de/vorstand
- petertodd 10y ago
  > "But I think a lot of people need to examine themselves closely for why they couldn't believe the women who shared their stories yesterday, but now can today." I think this shows how putting your reputation on the line when you accuse someone makes the accusation itself far more powerful and likely to believed; remember that no-one has yet publicly and non-anonymously(1) accused him of rape directly, but rather, have only said that others have accused him. I hope that if these allegations are true, people in addition to Nick Farr will have the bravery to go public with them - that's what's needed to actually put a stop to abusers. 1) In this context, "non-anonymously" includes commonly used pseudonyms of course - the legal names of people aren't what's important, but rather the identities they commonly use.
  - hackuser 10y ago
    > I think this shows how putting your reputation on the line when you accuse someone makes the accusation itself far more powerful and likely to believed I agree, but that has to be balanced with the costs, and especially the costs to rape victims.
- zealotmonkey 10y ago
  In 2013, before, and during 30c3, Jacob Appelbaum suspected, and made claims, including one before the European Parliament, that he was under surveillance[0]. Since at least 2010, Jacob Appelbaum had been detained at airports and had his computer seized, multiple times. Despite this, Nick Farr, at 30c3, during the time period in which Jacob Applebaum heavily suspected he was under surveillance, and was presenting talks about classified NSA material, thought it would be friendly to permit a lightning talk that alleged that Jacob Applebaum was working for an intelligence agency, and then, without the actual talk happening, delete all records of that allegation when Applebaum, who thought he was under surveillance, requested information pertaining to that possibility. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Applebaum#Journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Applebaum#Journalism [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Applebaum#Detention_and_investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Applebaum#Detention_and_...

PollenBull 10y ago

Jacob was an asset to the community. I really want to believe him (hopefully time will tell)

daxorid 10y ago
If he was plagiarizing original research and raping other community members, he was most certainly not an asset to the community.
- rndmind 10y ago
  He was an invaluable and founding member of the TOR community. I have deeply seated suspicions that something fishy is going on.
  - daxorid 10y ago
    I'm curious how he was 'invaluable' if the accusations of plagiarism are true. Other people are responsible for his contributions, in that case. The technically incompetent but socially competent taking credit away from where it is due ought to be a well understood phenomenon here at HN. Why give him a pass if this is the case as well?
legodt 10y ago
The destructive and destabilizing force of an abusive, possibly sexually, actor in a community, especially in an authority position has historically proven to be far more harmful to communities than whatever objective work they contribute. Bad actors engender the long term viability of a movement.

venomsnake 10y ago

> Not only have I been the target of a fake website in my name that has falsely accused me of serious crimes, but I have also received death threats (including a Twitter handle entitled ‘TimeToDieJake’). Credit where credit is due - the guy has learned his lesson about how to properly play the part of the social media victim.

reverend 10y ago
You probably have to explain, as I have a hard time to see him anything but a victim when there are obvious attacks aimed at him.

fgadsuhopmfup 10y ago

Any ideas on who would target him?

nabla9 10y ago

In cases like these, most people (like me) who read these exchanges have no idea what is true and what is not. Either there is rape or not. If not, there is libel and slander. In any case Internet publicity is not correct place to get justice.

nisa 10y ago
There is a pretty clear common theme displayed on the Twitter accounts of people that are in this community and know each other personally. These are also not outsiders but trusted members of the community. So far the response is either silence or acknowledgement of the accusations. This is not a trail but it looks like the attempt to remove a toxic person from this community to prevent harm to others. This does not mean that he is guilty of the accusations but a lot of persons related to CCC congress, hackers, Tor members univocally agree that it's a good idea to have him step down and exclude him. There seems to be enough personal backstories that everyone seem to agree it's the right thing to do. At least that's my impression from the outside. This is not some kind of government orchestrated smear campaign, rather an effort to prevent harm.
- nabla9 10y ago
  >At least that's my impression from the outside. It has no value. We who are outsiders in the drama can't contribute and our impressions can be false. Some of use are just drawn into the drama and can't avoid taking sides. Creating impressions is how internet drama works.
  - powera 10y ago
    If outsiders can't contribute, why are you commenting on it (twice!) here?
    - mwfunk 10y ago
      Fine, contributing in the form of saying "we can't contribute here" is the one way in which we can contribute. Happy? That seems pretty obvious, no need to call people out for supposed double standards.

chris_wot 10y ago

I guess I'm just trying to understand why police weren't involved. There a story on the blog he refers to of him taking advantage of a woman when they were completely intoxicated and allegations she was raped by him and his friends.

DanBC 10y ago
Look how how rape victims are treated by police and the courts. It's not surprising that people are reluctant to report rape and sexual assault. Here's one, where the perpetrator was seen by other people assaulting someone who was passed out drunk: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/06/stanford-sexual-assault-case-victim-impact-statement-in-full?CMP=twt_gu http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/06/stanford-sexu... He still said the sex was consensual, and his lawyers put that women through hell.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  That's sadly a fair comment.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- sievebrain 10y ago
  I guess you mean they're treated badly? The legal system in western countries is very biased in favour of rape accusers. Shield laws are a concrete manifestation of that. Often police are told to automatically believe any rape accusation even if their common sense is telling them it's likely to be false. And so on. Yes, if you make a serious accusation against someone, their defence lawyer is going to ask difficult questions. You're attempting to make their life literally hell, by jailing them for a long time. Being asked a few questions is in no way comparable.
  - openasocket 10y ago
    >The legal system in western countries is very biased in favour of rape accusers. This is patently false. Conviction rates for rape are far lower compared to other crimes[1] >Shield laws are a concrete manifestation of that Shield laws make it so news reporters cannot be forced to reveal their sources, I don't see what this has to do with rape cases. >Being asked a few questions is in no way comparable. Being forced to re-experience a traumatic event by a party determined to discredit you is pretty horrible. Also, you should look at the case linked. The accused was found assaulting the girl in an alley by third party witnesses, and received six months probation. [1]Kelly, Lovett and Regan, A gap or a chasm? Attrition in reported rape cases, 2005

rdl 10y ago

So far, the only thing I'm fairly sure of is the "jacobappelbaum.net" and "@DieJakeDie" social media efforts are doing more harm than good, and were a horrible idea. They might make a not-extremely-guilty person look worse than he is, or make a horrible person somehow sympathetic to people who think he's "also a victim", but they don't help.

TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
OK, what would you do, then? If the people he's exploited stay silent, then he can keep doing it! Going through the legal system isn't much help in a community which is distrustful of it. Complaining to the person in question, well, they've tried that, and it did nothing. And if they don't group their stories together, then it's harder for people to find the accusations against him. There is strength, and more importantly in this case, credibility, in numbers.
- reitanqild 10y ago
  Report it to the police for one. (Ref Assange.)
  - Sanddancer 10y ago
    Reporting it to the police is an amazingly stressful process that requires you to relive it again and again, being tried in the public eye, opening yourself up to claims of being a slut, etc. Just being able to admit you were raped is a strength a lot of victims don't have.
    - Sacho 10y ago
      Creating a site that alleges you are a rapist is an amazingly stressful process for the presumed innocent person, requiring him to respond to a torrent of media and social hate and shunning, being tried in the public eye, open to claims of being a "monster", etc. You could argue you're "helping" more people by believing rape claims, but that's both mob rule(the rights of the many trample the rights of the few) and not necessarily stable in the long run. If people do not need to produce any evidence and feel no fear of reprisal, it's likely the rate of false accusations will climb as people learn to use them as a tool to bludgeon their adversaries.

44458427 10y ago

Now I feel bad for submitting fake stories to jacobappelbaum.net. I forgot he's a real person with feelings and emotions. Ah well, could be worse. Could be me at the receiving end of all this ire.

elcapitan 10y ago

Why did this post disappear from the front page? Can't find it on the first 20 or so pages listed neither.

nikcub 10y ago
Everything related to this story has been flagged off the front page and it's a shame
- dang 10y ago
  In my experience, some people routinely believe any statement that takes this form, so it's good to be factually careful when making them. There have been three major discussions of this story, and two of them spent many hours on the front page, including yesterday. Those were flagged, but not "flagged off the front page".
dang 10y ago
It was flagged by users and set off some software penalties. I'm not convinced that this story belongs on Hacker News. The mandate of the site is "stories that gratify intellectual curiosity", and it seems pretty clear that both the curiosity and gratification here are more voyeuristic than intellectual. Arguably the appropriate scope for the story would be the smaller online community of people who are personally and professionally affected by it. On the other hand, the HN community is clearly interested, Tor is a longstanding topic here, the discussion has been better than it might (edit: though it has now gotten significantly worse), and if we're going to have it at all we shouldn't have only one side of it. So I've turned off flagging on this post and reduced the software penalties.
- peterwwillis 10y ago
  But this doesn't have anything to do with Tor. A story that says "X is no longer working for Tor" would be fine, but this is clearly just dragging out the Paparazzi nature of famous people in a scandal.
  - 10y ago

justcommenting 10y ago

Former Tor Project Executive Director Andrew Lewman's perspective might be interesting on this topic, but the DailyDot story was the only one for which I've seen him quoted (https://www.dailydot.com/politics/jacob-appelbaum-tor-project-sexual-misconduct/ https://www.dailydot.com/politics/jacob-appelbaum-tor-projec...). Notably, Lewman volunteers at Transition House (http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/10/01/technology-used-as-weapon-in-domestic-abuse-cases/ http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/10/01/technology-used-as-wea...), founded IPVTech (Intimate Partner Violence tech), and appears to work/volunteer with other organizations associated with victims of domestic and/or sexual abuse (http://wiki.lewman.is/CV#work-with-trauma-victims-including-victims-of-domestic-abuseintimate-partner-violence http://wiki.lewman.is/CV#work-with-trauma-victims-including-...). Perhaps Lewman was unaware (this seems unlikely given the DailyDot article's reporting of "mishandling" or "botching" the situation), but it would surprise me if someone with that orientation turned a blind eye to the alleged behavior.

WhatIsThisIm12 10y ago

Personally I don't even think these stories should be on HN... nothing good can come from them because all anyone can offer is pure speculation. Now, in the interest of speculation, I have some conspiracy theories to suggest. Normally I wouldn't post conspiracy theories, but I think conspiracies have way more validity when you're talking about the security community. So, check out these links: - https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ - https://theintercept.com/document/2014/02/24/art-deception-training-new-generation-online-covert-operations/ https://theintercept.com/document/2014/02/24/art-deception-t... Then consider these conspiracy theories: 1) Jacob Appelbaum works for an intelligence service and was compromised, and this is their way of pulling him from the field 2) Jacob Appelbaum works for an intelligence service and was compromised, and this is a rival intelligence service's way of pulling him from the field 3) Jacob Appelbaum does not work for an intelligence service, but rather is the victim of a smearing campaign by an intelligence service My personal opinion is that the guy is an asshole, his (ex-)friends are fed up with him, and they severely overstepped their bounds in attacking him. The line about "what you have to do with a sociopath" (paraphrasing) was particularly alarming for me; that was a clear signal of desire for vindication.

captainmuon 10y ago

In cases like this where it is word against word, I think it is important as an outsider to hedge your bet. Act as if the allegations are true and false at the same time. Assuming they are true: make sure to create a safe space (virtually, in real live, and in discourse) for potential victims. Don't put the accused person on sensitive community functions. Take (this and further) accusations very seriously. If someone doesn't want to deal with him, don't push the matter and don't ask why. You want to avoid retraumatization of potential victims, and you want to create a climate where affected people can feel safe. You should give people raising these accusations the benefit of doubt, and resist the urge to dig for proof or to argue about what actually happened or not. Especially given how hard it is for victims to get recognition and justice by going through the "official" channels, i.e. court. (This is basically the idea that is discussed as "power of definition" among feminists in Germany; I'm not sure how it's referred to in other countries, a quick search didn't come up with much.) Assuming they are false: It's rarer than most people think that accusations of sexual abuse are falsely raised, but it is still a possibility. Especially given that he is a exposed public figure and possible target for "character assassination". Any scenario could be possible, from personal revenge to a smear campaign by an intelligence agency. One should protect oneself from this possibility, whether it is real or not. Don't exclude him from your communities. Don't stop using his software, don't judge or punish him. Don't give him the punishment of shunning. Basically you have to do an impossible balancing act. You don't want to perpetuate this patriarchal shit that lets men often get away with sexualized violence. But you also don't want whoever might be abusing this claim (agencies, personal enemies, ...) to win. So the only sane course is to be all about protection of victims, providing a safe space etc., but not punishing anybody.

hackuser 10y ago
I once was on a committee to craft a sexual assault and harassment policy for a small organization. It was an impossible task: You can't expose others, and especially the alleged victim, to a violent felon; imagine if they struck again! You also can't cost someone their job, residence, or reputation over an unsubstantiated allegation. And a small organization lacks the resources to do a valid investigation, conduct hearings, etc. You absolutely can and should treat the complainant with respect and support; nobody accused them of a crime and they should not be treated with suspicion or doubt.

bitL 10y ago

Seems like the only way to work on privacy projects in the future is to become voluntarily castrated...

Natanael_L 10y ago
Or staying anonymous
GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
"Don't rape anybody" is probably an easier way.
- bitL 10y ago
  Given false claims epidemics you have in the US these days my solution seems the only feasible one that can stand up in court. Guess why Linus is never allowing a lone female to be alone with him even for a few seconds?
  - exolymph 10y ago
    > Given false claims epidemics you have in the US these days Citation needed.
    - retrogradeorbit 10y ago
      I don't think its an 'epidemic' as the poster exaggerated, but it does happen. I don't know about the US, but in Canada the Jian Ghomeshi trial is one recent example that comes to mind. Both the Ghomeshi trial and the Canadian trial of Gregory Alan Elliott show that there are indeed types of people out there who lie to bring charges, or increase the weight of charges bought against someone. And it shows they will lie all the way up to and through a court case, until cross examination (or in Elliott's case an insider tip off of conspiracy) unravel the lies. I don't know what to think in this case but it is not something you can rule out completely.
      - 10y ago

powera 10y ago

This Medium post summarizes my take on this statement better than I can. TLDR "I can’t directly say the allegations are false." https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060310#.fxsslnv0k https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060...

SeanLuke 10y ago
I don't understand that one. Does @frabyn not know that spurious means false?
- sievebrain 10y ago
  It's a dumb article. Applebaum's statement says quite clearly "the claims are false" but this so-called analysis tries to argue it's the opposite.
- acqq 10y ago
  > Does @frabyn not know that spurious means false? Does 'SeanLuke not know the following definitions of spurious? http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spurious http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spurious "of a deceitful nature or quality" "not genuine, sincere, or authentic" So Appelbaum can claim that he didn't exactly mean "false" (in a sense of "never happened") but "not sincere" (as in, "somebody instructed those people to tell that now, you know, the nasty governments that are after me") if presented with the proofs later. In short, read carefully yourself, take the dictionary and consider what was actually written and what wasn't. My impression, Franklin Bynum correctly recognized one weasel word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
rmeyers 10y ago
So another one in the Tor "community" behaves irresponsibly and childish. What a surprise. Open source projects are completely ruined these days by the ballast that surrounds them and drags them down.
- daxorid 10y ago

geofft 10y ago

There's a good analysis of this statement at https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060310 https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060... that decodes the statement and points out what it says and doesn't say.

Chris2048 10y ago

> It's rarer than most people think that accusations of sexual abuse are falsely raised How do you determine this?

Houshalter 10y ago
According to this essay, about 3% of men will get falsely accused of rape in their lifetime: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/17/lies-damned-lies-and-social-media-part-5-of-∞/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/17/lies-damned-lies-and-so... The real number is impossible to determine, but is uncomfortably high.
- hackuser 10y ago
  With due respect, this is a politically charged issue so I'm dubious of trusting random people, such as the author of that article. Are there more established sources around on this issue?
  - nickpsecurity 10y ago
    Google "rape conviction overturned DNA evidence." Happens too much.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      There were 67,000+ sexual assault convictions in 2012, and 18 overturned convictions. Would you like that as a percentage? That's 0.02%.
      - nickpsecurity 10y ago
        Exactly. Convictions through the roof. That's why they should take it to court. Far as overturned, do you have data on how many got to prove something with DNA? Or conviction rate without it?
        10y ago

nickpsecurity 10y ago

Actually, with enough female witnesses it's usually easy to get a conviction out of a jury. Matter of fact, it's easy enough that men are regularly released when DNA evidence shows they were wrongly convicted based on one woman's word. This shouldve been sent to the police either with first event or once it became a trend. Instead, we have tweets, stylistic websites, and otherwise a full smear campaign going on pretending to protect people. If it's real, they need to take legal action to prove it. If proven, the guy is locked up. Only then is anyone protected. Suspicious they'll do anything but testify under oath.

tptacek 10y ago
This ginned-up gender conflict is neither germane nor relevant to the discussion; comments like these are a big part of the reason these Appelbaum threads on HN are so awful.
- nickpsecurity 10y ago
  It's not gendered up at all. You just cited 60,000+ rape convictions. They claim this guy is a rapist. The site wants to stop more rapes. Nobody wants to go to police though. Others instead talk like that's infeasible with multiple eyewitnesses to multiple rapes. Im calling out that BS. This needs to be in court, not Twitter or HN.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    There are ways to suggest that this is a poor topic for online debate without arguing that rape victims who don't engage law enforcement are illegitimate. Unfortunately, it's hard to take that odious sentiment back now that you've put it out there.
    - nickpsecurity 10y ago
      I just did with a clarification. It's easy for any reader to understand my intent now. Whereas, what you say will be true for anyone biased against me or opposing me in discussion. Not winning them over anyway. No loss.

fredgrott 10y ago

What is strange: First, both the accusers and the accused should have their day in court. It should not be debated any other way. That being said the TOR project had an obligation to be transparent about this situation and failed to do so.. Some of us do in fact run open source projects and should we abide by TOR's example when we are confronted with the situation of accusations of illegal acts by a project contributor?

hackuser 10y ago
> the TOR project had an obligation to be transparent about this situation and failed to do so.. You can't always be transparent. * Publicizing a victim's rape, or their names, without their consent is considered publicly shaming them. It's a very bad idea. * Publicizing an accusation against someone that you can't substantiate, especially something very damaging to their reputation such as rape, could be slander. You could be sued (and rightfully so). * Publicizing any private HR issues is also often illegal and/or wrong.
y7 10y ago
Courts aren't about truth finding, they're about establishing whether there's enough evidence that a specific crime was committed. Something like Nick Farr's story[1] is, if true, not against the law, but it does display behaviour that can be really detrimental to a community. 1: https://medium.com/@nickf4rr/hi-im-nick-farr-nickf4rr-35c32f13da4d https://medium.com/@nickf4rr/hi-im-nick-farr-nickf4rr-35c32f...
bsder 10y ago
> should we abide by TOR's example when we are confronted with the situation of accusations of illegal acts So you fire anyone who gets accused of something? Hope you are a big fan of the Salem Witch Trials. The US operates on innocent until proven guilty for a reason.

throwaw11122334 10y ago

jacobappelbaum.net is hosted on github at: https://github.com/cephurs/jacobappelbaum.net https://github.com/cephurs/jacobappelbaum.net Cephurs was an op in a channel run by the law enforcement folks who took down LulzSec: http://www.xeroflux.net/uploads/Operation_Anon_Rat.pdf http://www.xeroflux.net/uploads/Operation_Anon_Rat.pdf Kinda suspicious.

googlefushift2 10y ago
https://defcongroups.org/dcpages.html https://defcongroups.org/dcpages.html
grapehut 10y ago
Totally can't be law enforcement, they forked the repo "FuckNSA".

devishard 10y ago

Quite frankly, why is this on Hacker News? Maybe Jacob Appelbaum raped someone, maybe he didn't. That's not anyone's business except Appelbaum's, his accusers', and the legal system's. It certainly is not a public concern, and it's irrelevant to Tor.

y7 10y ago
I found it interesting to read. Appelbaum is relatively well-known in tech circles, and I use HN to keep me updated on "what goes on in tech circles" -- whether that's gossip or new technological developments.
- devishard 10y ago
  "I found it interesting to read" is not a particularly good reason to drag someone's name through the mud for crimes he hasn't been convicted of.

Fej 10y ago

I don't know who to believe anymore.

DyslexicAtheist 10y ago

jacobappelbaum.net is a fake: https://twitter.com/ValbonneConsult/status/740466050731499520 https://twitter.com/ValbonneConsult/status/74046605073149952... https://twitter.com/ValbonneConsult/status/740466297197232128 https://twitter.com/ValbonneConsult/status/74046629719723212... Also whatever he might have done will now be drowned out by these false accusations. Mob mentality is as bad as whatever he might have done.

jubalfh 10y ago
aren't you easily persuaded…