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Read the link in my first post above. Your claim would be the same as saying that "Christendom" was a nation during the middle ages and that the EU has always e

by weeksie 10y ago

Read the link in my first post above. Your claim would be the same as saying that "Christendom" was a nation during the middle ages and that the EU has always existed as an identity. It's a region with many shared traditions and at some times has had large swaths governed by warlords, kings, conquerors, but the concept of India as a nation just did not exist pre-colonialism. I don't see how that's denying anybody identity.

eklavya 10y ago
So you are arguing against Vedas based on a student submission for a university degree?
- weeksie 10y ago
  Where am I arguing against "the Vedas" and what does that even mean? The (well cited and researched) paper I linked above mentions how old the Vedas are. However, they are holy books and mythology, not historical documents. A description of a region in a holy book is not as a identity or cohesiveness as a cultural or political entity.
  - eklavya 10y ago
    King Bharata is as much mythology as king Arthur. The "well researched" paper is a student submission. Have you read any other research that argues for the opposite? I am on mobile, will search and link a few later.
    - weeksie 10y ago
      There's a pretty long list of citations at the bottom of that paper and the sample of them that I could be bothered to check for an internet article were legit. If you have any arguments against the thesis of that paper other than ad hominem I'd love to hear them. I'm hardly a scholar of Indian history, I just did a bunch of reading during the two months I recently spent traveling the country from south to north. That was one of the articles that popped up when I was trying to find any decent information on the caste system and it's very well written and argued (and, like I said, the citations check out). It seems to me though that the area was wildly diverse and hardly a unified entity before the Brits came along. I mean, what about Pakistan? That's not part of India. But that's only as of 75 or so years ago? Is that counted in these "national income" totals that the original parent poster was talking about? That was my original quibble with what the hell the guy meant by his statement and the historical existence of India as a nation. (A nation being a modern concept anyway, which was also at the heart of my quibble.) Anyway, as to the analogy with Arthurian mythology, that's a good one. The area that King Arthur purportedly ruled was Britain, Ireland, Norway, and Gaul. Is that all Britain or . . . ? See the problem with that line of reasoning?
      - eklavya 10y ago
        Alright, I took the bait. I read through the paper and it seems it heavily depends on Vedas for some of it's arguments. So your point about not considering Vedas as credible evidence doesn't stand. The paper doesn't comment anything (at least conclusively) about the Indian nation. The paper is about caste system. Some of your queries might be answered here http://sankrant.org/2003/10/why-india-is-a-nation/ http://sankrant.org/2003/10/why-india-is-a-nation/
        weeksie 10y ago
        That's a shame. You didn't even read the link you were arguing the validity of until now? I still don't think you read it since you've just quoted the thesis but not referenced the notion that the idea even of "Hindu" identity just didn't exist, even though the people in the region shared many of the same texts. That's not the same as claiming that the belief systems didn't exist, or that they weren't widely similar, but that they weren't a cohesive unit. The blog post you linked me to just reinforces my point about nationhood if you'd have been paying much attention to my posts instead of getting defensive about "Indian identity" or whatever.
        eklavya 10y ago
        I am an Indian, do I need to read a foreign paper to know about my own nation? You are confusing two different topics, we are not discussing the concept "Hindu", we are discussing whether there was an entity "India". The paper you linked says nothing about that. I have told you how the concept of India is very old using the citations in your cited paper. The blog post I linked proves my point so I don't know what you are talking about. What do I have to be defensive about? Do you think I have identity crisis because some random person on the internet has some beliefs? lol
eklavya 10y ago
You seem to have changed the whole comment since I replied.
eklavya 10y ago
That's a very very misinformed opinion. This seems to be a popular theme that British made India. Somehow Britishers conquering large swaths of India gave it an identity but not for the earlier rulers. You should read the Arabic and Chinese accounts of India if the Indian accounts are only "holy books" and thus not to be trusted. The Arabs (they called it Hindustan) and the Chinese both recognise the Indian nation.

by weeksie 10y ago

eklavya 10y ago

So you are arguing against Vedas based on a student submission for a university degree?

weeksie 10y ago
Where am I arguing against "the Vedas" and what does that even mean? The (well cited and researched) paper I linked above mentions how old the Vedas are. However, they are holy books and mythology, not historical documents. A description of a region in a holy book is not as a identity or cohesiveness as a cultural or political entity.
- eklavya 10y ago
  King Bharata is as much mythology as king Arthur. The "well researched" paper is a student submission. Have you read any other research that argues for the opposite? I am on mobile, will search and link a few later.
  - weeksie 10y ago
    There's a pretty long list of citations at the bottom of that paper and the sample of them that I could be bothered to check for an internet article were legit. If you have any arguments against the thesis of that paper other than ad hominem I'd love to hear them. I'm hardly a scholar of Indian history, I just did a bunch of reading during the two months I recently spent traveling the country from south to north. That was one of the articles that popped up when I was trying to find any decent information on the caste system and it's very well written and argued (and, like I said, the citations check out). It seems to me though that the area was wildly diverse and hardly a unified entity before the Brits came along. I mean, what about Pakistan? That's not part of India. But that's only as of 75 or so years ago? Is that counted in these "national income" totals that the original parent poster was talking about? That was my original quibble with what the hell the guy meant by his statement and the historical existence of India as a nation. (A nation being a modern concept anyway, which was also at the heart of my quibble.) Anyway, as to the analogy with Arthurian mythology, that's a good one. The area that King Arthur purportedly ruled was Britain, Ireland, Norway, and Gaul. Is that all Britain or . . . ? See the problem with that line of reasoning?
    - eklavya 10y ago
      Alright, I took the bait. I read through the paper and it seems it heavily depends on Vedas for some of it's arguments. So your point about not considering Vedas as credible evidence doesn't stand. The paper doesn't comment anything (at least conclusively) about the Indian nation. The paper is about caste system. Some of your queries might be answered here http://sankrant.org/2003/10/why-india-is-a-nation/ http://sankrant.org/2003/10/why-india-is-a-nation/
      - weeksie 10y ago
        That's a shame. You didn't even read the link you were arguing the validity of until now? I still don't think you read it since you've just quoted the thesis but not referenced the notion that the idea even of "Hindu" identity just didn't exist, even though the people in the region shared many of the same texts. That's not the same as claiming that the belief systems didn't exist, or that they weren't widely similar, but that they weren't a cohesive unit. The blog post you linked me to just reinforces my point about nationhood if you'd have been paying much attention to my posts instead of getting defensive about "Indian identity" or whatever.
        eklavya 10y ago
        I am an Indian, do I need to read a foreign paper to know about my own nation? You are confusing two different topics, we are not discussing the concept "Hindu", we are discussing whether there was an entity "India". The paper you linked says nothing about that. I have told you how the concept of India is very old using the citations in your cited paper. The blog post I linked proves my point so I don't know what you are talking about. What do I have to be defensive about? Do you think I have identity crisis because some random person on the internet has some beliefs? lol

eklavya 10y ago

You seem to have changed the whole comment since I replied.

eklavya 10y ago

That's a very very misinformed opinion. This seems to be a popular theme that British made India. Somehow Britishers conquering large swaths of India gave it an identity but not for the earlier rulers. You should read the Arabic and Chinese accounts of India if the Indian accounts are only "holy books" and thus not to be trusted. The Arabs (they called it Hindustan) and the Chinese both recognise the Indian nation.