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This is excellent for the history and for the examples of what worked and what didn't. But the interpretations are a little dubious: Takeaway: Game developers

This is excellent for the history and for the examples of what worked and what didn't. But the interpretations are a little dubious: Takeaway: Game developers should create a well-defined concept before beginning development as opposed to an ad hoc method of game design. This would exclude Dota, for example. Gamedev is a world of exceptions. In general, it's best to playtest every idea you come up with and cut whatever isn't fun.

stepvhen 10y ago
Dota was a user made mod originally, so I don't think that counts.
- sillysaurus3 10y ago
  Mods have been some of the most successful types of games, which seems like a pretty persuasive reason they should count. Some of the biggest names in the history of gaming started out as mods: Counterstrike, Team Fortress, etc. Valve's success is arguably because they find user-made mods and make them triple-A. Also, the advent of engines like Unity and UE blur what "modding" means. The WC3 engine was flexible enough to be made into Dota, which was then implemented on the Source Engine as Dota 2. But why was the original Dota a mod, whereas Dota 2 isn't? It's hard to come up with a definitive answer to that.
  - stepvhen 10y ago
    I think there is a misunderstanding: Dota doesn't apply to the quote "Game developers should create a well-defined concept ..." since it was neither conceptualized nor made by the Warcraft programmers. Additionally, the originally Dota started as a mod, was then published as a game, and Dota 2 would then not count as a mod. Its not hard to come up with a definitive answer to that. A game is a mod if it doesn't stand alone, if it requires _modifying_ the structure/code of another game.
    - sillysaurus3 10y ago
      The Warcraft 3 engine was flexible enough to implement Dota, just like the Unity engine was flexible enough to implement Rust. By your criteria, Rust is a mod, even though it's clearly not. It's better to say that mods are games and to treat them the same than to try to differentiate them. The same design process that yields a successful mod will yield a successful game.
      - yelnatz 10y ago
        Rust is not a mod, but is a clone of a mod of Arma2 called DayZ.
        sillysaurus3 10y ago
        This is a strange comment, because the first half is what I said. Rust isn't a mod. Yet their criteria would classify it as one, since the Unity programmers did not conceptualize Rust when they created Unity. But the second half is completely false. Rust has nothing whatsoever to do with DayZ, except that it's vaguely in the same genre.
  - chipsy 10y ago
    Modding basically recoups the investment into making a game's community - an individual can present their result to an existing player community directly, with a brief forum post, and a small website with some images or video to advertise. That is enough to build a small empire on, going by the most popular examples. That's different from the typical lifecycle of a commercial game, which has a deeper level of marketing work to do before it can even consolidate a playerbase. There isn't a "Unity modding community", per se. There is a community of Unity developers, and players of individual games made in Unity, who have no broader associations. A game transitioning from the mod sphere of an existing game to an independently produced commercial title still has to overcome this gap, and most of them don't make it over the line. The advice is sensible, nevertheless. If you can extend the schedule to focus on the core elements of the design as a "R&D" process where the majority must be thrown away, and only scale it up towards a shipping product as the concept proves itself, you minimize the risk of the budget being wasted on a flawed concept. Modding scenes, game jams, and micro-budget productions all have the benefit of weeding out most of the really early, risky design experiments, without wasting enough of people's time or money to care. Even when conceiving the marketing for a larger production, the same advice works. The "trial balloon" or "landing page" method, etc. You still do design thinking when you market, but it's design on the topics of "how do we build a funnel" or "how do we make this a franchise." Still very easy to spend a lot of money on making a splash without getting the blueprint right.
ekianjo 10y ago
This advice is super generic.
- sillysaurus3 10y ago
  No more generic than "Make something people want" or "Listen to your users." And yet most companies get these wrong, just like most game companies fail to playtest their ideas.
  - LionessLover 10y ago
    Why do you say "and yet" - since such generic "advice" is useless so is the conclusion "and yet they get it wrong!" (I told you something useless - why doesn't it help?)
    - sillysaurus3 10y ago
      Because if you follow this advice, you're more likely to yield a successful product. Playtesting isn't useless. It's how fun games are made. Perhaps people are disagreeing with this because they haven't tried to make a game. A curious phenomenon.
      - LionessLover 10y ago
        You simultaneously complain the advice is generic and claim it's useful. You always bet on both colors in roulette? No, generic advice is not useful. It's... too generic.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - squeaky-clean 10y ago
        But that's not advice. It's the same as telling a video game player that to win you need to "get a higher score than the enemy" and "play really well". And when someone loses, "I gave them such great advice, and yet they messed it up!" "Listen to your users" is not advice, it's the end goal. What's the most effective way to listen to your users? Professional playtesting? Open alpha/beta? Forums, IRC channel, a subreddit? Frequently scheduled AMA with the devs? Infrequently scheduled AMA with the devs?
flashman 10y ago
Having "a well-defined concept before beginning development" would seem to include Dota and other successful mods, because Valve is starting with a successful game concept (compared to the vast majority of mods that never find an audience). For Counter-Strike/TF2/Portal/Dota, Valve took a strong existing concept and developed it. It's exactly what's recommended in the takeaway.
- wingerlang 10y ago
  You are probably thinking of Dota 2. Both Dota, CS and TF where most likely developed ad-hoc as they were mods that grew organically.
  - ben_jones 10y ago
    Their were Age of Empire mods that were essentially MOBA scenarios. I don't doubt many such ideas are ad hoc genius, but a lot of game dev is re-hashing with a twist.

stepvhen 10y ago

Dota was a user made mod originally, so I don't think that counts.

sillysaurus3 10y ago
Mods have been some of the most successful types of games, which seems like a pretty persuasive reason they should count. Some of the biggest names in the history of gaming started out as mods: Counterstrike, Team Fortress, etc. Valve's success is arguably because they find user-made mods and make them triple-A. Also, the advent of engines like Unity and UE blur what "modding" means. The WC3 engine was flexible enough to be made into Dota, which was then implemented on the Source Engine as Dota 2. But why was the original Dota a mod, whereas Dota 2 isn't? It's hard to come up with a definitive answer to that.
- stepvhen 10y ago
  I think there is a misunderstanding: Dota doesn't apply to the quote "Game developers should create a well-defined concept ..." since it was neither conceptualized nor made by the Warcraft programmers. Additionally, the originally Dota started as a mod, was then published as a game, and Dota 2 would then not count as a mod. Its not hard to come up with a definitive answer to that. A game is a mod if it doesn't stand alone, if it requires _modifying_ the structure/code of another game.
  - sillysaurus3 10y ago
    The Warcraft 3 engine was flexible enough to implement Dota, just like the Unity engine was flexible enough to implement Rust. By your criteria, Rust is a mod, even though it's clearly not. It's better to say that mods are games and to treat them the same than to try to differentiate them. The same design process that yields a successful mod will yield a successful game.
    - yelnatz 10y ago
      Rust is not a mod, but is a clone of a mod of Arma2 called DayZ.
      - sillysaurus3 10y ago
        This is a strange comment, because the first half is what I said. Rust isn't a mod. Yet their criteria would classify it as one, since the Unity programmers did not conceptualize Rust when they created Unity. But the second half is completely false. Rust has nothing whatsoever to do with DayZ, except that it's vaguely in the same genre.
- chipsy 10y ago
  Modding basically recoups the investment into making a game's community - an individual can present their result to an existing player community directly, with a brief forum post, and a small website with some images or video to advertise. That is enough to build a small empire on, going by the most popular examples. That's different from the typical lifecycle of a commercial game, which has a deeper level of marketing work to do before it can even consolidate a playerbase. There isn't a "Unity modding community", per se. There is a community of Unity developers, and players of individual games made in Unity, who have no broader associations. A game transitioning from the mod sphere of an existing game to an independently produced commercial title still has to overcome this gap, and most of them don't make it over the line. The advice is sensible, nevertheless. If you can extend the schedule to focus on the core elements of the design as a "R&D" process where the majority must be thrown away, and only scale it up towards a shipping product as the concept proves itself, you minimize the risk of the budget being wasted on a flawed concept. Modding scenes, game jams, and micro-budget productions all have the benefit of weeding out most of the really early, risky design experiments, without wasting enough of people's time or money to care. Even when conceiving the marketing for a larger production, the same advice works. The "trial balloon" or "landing page" method, etc. You still do design thinking when you market, but it's design on the topics of "how do we build a funnel" or "how do we make this a franchise." Still very easy to spend a lot of money on making a splash without getting the blueprint right.

ekianjo 10y ago

This advice is super generic.

sillysaurus3 10y ago
No more generic than "Make something people want" or "Listen to your users." And yet most companies get these wrong, just like most game companies fail to playtest their ideas.
- LionessLover 10y ago
  Why do you say "and yet" - since such generic "advice" is useless so is the conclusion "and yet they get it wrong!" (I told you something useless - why doesn't it help?)
  - sillysaurus3 10y ago
    Because if you follow this advice, you're more likely to yield a successful product. Playtesting isn't useless. It's how fun games are made. Perhaps people are disagreeing with this because they haven't tried to make a game. A curious phenomenon.
    - LionessLover 10y ago
      You simultaneously complain the advice is generic and claim it's useful. You always bet on both colors in roulette? No, generic advice is not useful. It's... too generic.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    - squeaky-clean 10y ago
      But that's not advice. It's the same as telling a video game player that to win you need to "get a higher score than the enemy" and "play really well". And when someone loses, "I gave them such great advice, and yet they messed it up!" "Listen to your users" is not advice, it's the end goal. What's the most effective way to listen to your users? Professional playtesting? Open alpha/beta? Forums, IRC channel, a subreddit? Frequently scheduled AMA with the devs? Infrequently scheduled AMA with the devs?

flashman 10y ago

Having "a well-defined concept before beginning development" would seem to include Dota and other successful mods, because Valve is starting with a successful game concept (compared to the vast majority of mods that never find an audience). For Counter-Strike/TF2/Portal/Dota, Valve took a strong existing concept and developed it. It's exactly what's recommended in the takeaway.

wingerlang 10y ago
You are probably thinking of Dota 2. Both Dota, CS and TF where most likely developed ad-hoc as they were mods that grew organically.
- ben_jones 10y ago
  Their were Age of Empire mods that were essentially MOBA scenarios. I don't doubt many such ideas are ad hoc genius, but a lot of game dev is re-hashing with a twist.