15 ms·

The don't replace anyone statement doesn't make any sense. Instead of training foreign workers we could be training American workers for these jobs.

itsnotlupus 10y ago
Do you mean to train them against their will?
- selectron 10y ago
  There are always people willing to do the job at the right price and work conditions. Companies would rather pay lower salaries with worse working conditions than pay US workers the wages needed to match the demand. It is basic supply and demand - the more supply of something the less demand it has. The country as a whole may benefit from immigration but the US workers who have to compete with foreign workers definitely do not.
verst 10y ago
Are you suggesting that companies should not be able to hire the most qualified individuals who went through the same system as everybody else? [EDIT (rephrasing): There is no particular training provided. The international students received the same education as US students at US institutions.] International students generally have to pay for everything out of pocket (they are not eligible for any public/tax-payer based assistance, not even subsidized loans). This in effect often subsidizes the cost of tuition for the domestic students. [EDIT: This is the case in the University of California system where the percentage of out of state and international students admissions increases to deal with budget problems.] The companies in question here expect individuals to have worked on significant projects, demonstrated ambition and passion outside of their regular coursework. Those who can generally have no problem being hired.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  Are you seriously saying that foreign students subsidize the education of US citizens? That is one of the most absurd statements I've ever read on HN. US student's educations are paid for by student loans, they fund their own tuitions I can assure you. Attending university in the US is a privilege and that does not mean you should be guaranteed a job in the United States upon graduation. You seem to have a real sense of entitlement that because you went to school in the US the US owes you a job. Wow. This idea that the most talented people can only be found from outside the US needs to just die. If the US were so bereft of talent none of these companies that these H1B visa folks want to work for would exist. Ditto for the US universities they attend. This idea of relocating people to London for year is just gaming the system.
  - DrScump 10y ago
    <Are you seriously saying that foreign students subsidize the education of US citizens?> It may be a reference to the fact that many public colleges have tuition breaks for residents. The other side of that coin is availability. That practice gives those schools a financial incentive to grant full-retail foreign students admission priority over residents. That's certainly the case in California.
    - verst 10y ago
      The University of California system is exactly what I was referring to. They increasingly admit more out of state and international students to deal with their increasing budget problems and to counteract otherwise necessary larger tuition increases. I'm not saying this is good or bad. Just stating that this is happening.
    - bogomipz 10y ago
      Yes because your Mom and Dad paid taxes in that state, thats hardly a subsidy!
  - vthallam 10y ago
    I don't think his statement implies any of the things you are referring to. If you reread the comment again, he is making the argument that the students who went to school in US and are good at what they do should not be discriminated in hiring because they are not US citizens. > This idea that the most talented people can only be found from outside the US needs to just die. If the US were so bereft of talent none of these companies that these H1B visa folks want to work for would exist. Ditto for the US universities they attend. There is definitely a dearth in the STEM students who are US citizens and have an under-grad/grad degree from top schools. All the ones who are already places. My company hires from the top 30 schools in US and when my team went for Intern hiring, they couldn't find enough US citizens with masters degree. It's a supply demand problem.
- selectron 10y ago
  Yes, I am in favor of companies that are based in the US and take advantage of US infrastructure and tax-payer funding (indirectly and directly) should be hiring US citizens as workers. Anyway you didn't address the point - it is completely wrong to say that these foreign workers are not competing with US workers for the jobs they take. This is just basic supply and demand. Foreign workers are usually willing to take lower salaries and work longer hours than US citizens, which is why companies love to hire them.
  - verst 10y ago
    I'm only talking about the subclass of foreign workers who are educated in the US and already in the country. They surely would not accept longer working hours or less pay. I didn't say these graduates aren't competing, merely that in the case above nobody is being replaced (in a literal sense) as these were new positions to be filled. Also, they were not filled under the H-1B program, but the F-1 OPT program. F-1 OPT (post graduation training) hiring is virtually unrestricted (except for its duration). Of course workers who reside abroad and are brought to the US on H-1B directly are an entirely different class of foreign workers. I cannot speak to this group.

itsnotlupus 10y ago

Do you mean to train them against their will?

selectron 10y ago
There are always people willing to do the job at the right price and work conditions. Companies would rather pay lower salaries with worse working conditions than pay US workers the wages needed to match the demand. It is basic supply and demand - the more supply of something the less demand it has. The country as a whole may benefit from immigration but the US workers who have to compete with foreign workers definitely do not.

verst 10y ago

Are you suggesting that companies should not be able to hire the most qualified individuals who went through the same system as everybody else? [EDIT (rephrasing): There is no particular training provided. The international students received the same education as US students at US institutions.] International students generally have to pay for everything out of pocket (they are not eligible for any public/tax-payer based assistance, not even subsidized loans). This in effect often subsidizes the cost of tuition for the domestic students. [EDIT: This is the case in the University of California system where the percentage of out of state and international students admissions increases to deal with budget problems.] The companies in question here expect individuals to have worked on significant projects, demonstrated ambition and passion outside of their regular coursework. Those who can generally have no problem being hired.

bogomipz 10y ago
Are you seriously saying that foreign students subsidize the education of US citizens? That is one of the most absurd statements I've ever read on HN. US student's educations are paid for by student loans, they fund their own tuitions I can assure you. Attending university in the US is a privilege and that does not mean you should be guaranteed a job in the United States upon graduation. You seem to have a real sense of entitlement that because you went to school in the US the US owes you a job. Wow. This idea that the most talented people can only be found from outside the US needs to just die. If the US were so bereft of talent none of these companies that these H1B visa folks want to work for would exist. Ditto for the US universities they attend. This idea of relocating people to London for year is just gaming the system.
- DrScump 10y ago
  <Are you seriously saying that foreign students subsidize the education of US citizens?> It may be a reference to the fact that many public colleges have tuition breaks for residents. The other side of that coin is availability. That practice gives those schools a financial incentive to grant full-retail foreign students admission priority over residents. That's certainly the case in California.
  - verst 10y ago
    The University of California system is exactly what I was referring to. They increasingly admit more out of state and international students to deal with their increasing budget problems and to counteract otherwise necessary larger tuition increases. I'm not saying this is good or bad. Just stating that this is happening.
  - bogomipz 10y ago
    Yes because your Mom and Dad paid taxes in that state, thats hardly a subsidy!
- vthallam 10y ago
  I don't think his statement implies any of the things you are referring to. If you reread the comment again, he is making the argument that the students who went to school in US and are good at what they do should not be discriminated in hiring because they are not US citizens. > This idea that the most talented people can only be found from outside the US needs to just die. If the US were so bereft of talent none of these companies that these H1B visa folks want to work for would exist. Ditto for the US universities they attend. There is definitely a dearth in the STEM students who are US citizens and have an under-grad/grad degree from top schools. All the ones who are already places. My company hires from the top 30 schools in US and when my team went for Intern hiring, they couldn't find enough US citizens with masters degree. It's a supply demand problem.
selectron 10y ago
Yes, I am in favor of companies that are based in the US and take advantage of US infrastructure and tax-payer funding (indirectly and directly) should be hiring US citizens as workers. Anyway you didn't address the point - it is completely wrong to say that these foreign workers are not competing with US workers for the jobs they take. This is just basic supply and demand. Foreign workers are usually willing to take lower salaries and work longer hours than US citizens, which is why companies love to hire them.
- verst 10y ago
  I'm only talking about the subclass of foreign workers who are educated in the US and already in the country. They surely would not accept longer working hours or less pay. I didn't say these graduates aren't competing, merely that in the case above nobody is being replaced (in a literal sense) as these were new positions to be filled. Also, they were not filled under the H-1B program, but the F-1 OPT program. F-1 OPT (post graduation training) hiring is virtually unrestricted (except for its duration). Of course workers who reside abroad and are brought to the US on H-1B directly are an entirely different class of foreign workers. I cannot speak to this group.