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Coming from Switzerland, this is not at all surprising. No one expected this initiative to pass. It was really more of an attempt to get a conversation started,

Coming from Switzerland, this is not at all surprising. No one expected this initiative to pass. It was really more of an attempt to get a conversation started, and it's succeeded in that. As a (tentative) supporter of basic income, I'm already quite happy that something like a fifth to a quarter of voters went for it.

chongli 10y ago
Doesn't the fact that the margin on the no vote was so high put a damper on the enthusiasm for supporters? Or do the Swiss routinely vote over and over again on rewordings of the same idea?
- Zarkonnen 10y ago
  It does put a damper on things, but yeah, it's not uncommon for more or less the same thing to come up every decade or two. Evergreen topics include immigration reform, nuclear power, and whether Switzerland needs an army.
  - chongli 10y ago
    Ahhh. Well, it will be interesting to see how the economy evolves over the next decade and how that might affect a future vote. If tons of Swiss middle class lose their jobs and move down to low class it could be a dramatic reversal.
  - jkn 10y ago
    Mandatory health insurance is another good example:[1] In 1890 the constitution was changed by popular vote to give the federal government the authority and duty to establish a health care system, either voluntary or mandatory. A project for mandatory accident and health insurance passed the parliament in 1899, but a referendum was requested and the proposed law was rejected by popular vote in 1900. A new law was passed in 1911, keeping the mandatory accident insurance but leaving the states free to make health insurance voluntary or mandatory. This law survived a referendum in 1912. Attempts at revising the health insurance law failed in the 20's, 40's and 50's. A popular initiative for mandatory health insurance failed the vote in 1974. A counter-project submitted by the government, with mandatory coverage for large risks only, also failed the vote. Finally, another popular initiative for mandatory health insurance is deposited in 1986. The government prepares an indirect counter-project, resulting in a law that includes mandatory health insurance. The law is adopted by the parliament in March 1994, but a referendum is requested. Both the initiative and the referendum on the law are submitted to a popular vote in December 1994. The initiative fails by 76.6% "no" while the counter-project passes by 51.8% "yes". [1] http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/d/D16608.php http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/d/D16608.php
- k__ 10y ago
  Well, it was 2500 bucks. Maybe 1500 would get more people to vote for it, or something else chagned, etc.
  - Zarkonnen 10y ago
    Thing is that Switzerland is a super-expensive country. 1500 would not actually be enough to live on. You can get 4000 working at the till at a supermarket.
    - nickik 10y ago
      The idea of basic income is not to replace jobs. The idea is to give you the basics of living and food. Then you can take on additional work of some kind to improve your overall income. You could live with 1500 if you really wanted to. Its not impossible.
      - herbst 10y ago
        If you do not need any housing (or maybe am ok with a very remote small room)
  - vhf 10y ago
    It wasn't 2500 bucks. The text Switzerland voted on today said something like: > 1. The Confederation has to implement a basic income. > 2. This basic income has to be sufficient to live in dignity and participate to public life. > 3. The basic income amount and financing are regulated by law. Nothing regarding the exact amount. Swiss people were asked to vote on an idea, not on a specific amount.
    - m_mueller 10y ago
      Which is exactly what made me turn against it. I want to know what I vote for, leaving it open like that will in the best case lead to a completely watered down compromise and in the worst case a complete mess. The social security system needs to get simplified at the same time. An initiative committee for UBI needs to sit down and come up with a tenable solution, at least for the basic parameters (both spending and financing).
- ThomPete 10y ago
  No because you have to look at were we came from. 10 years ago people either didn't know what it even was or was against the idea. Only small groups of people here and there even thought it as a potential solution. Now countries like Finland is looking into it. I am pretty confident we are going to end up there, but like many other major changes in society it takes time and thats fine.
a-saleh 10y ago
Question, how does Switzerland avoid becoming more polarized country with so many referendum questions each year? Do you think there is a risk passing a referendum resolution that passed just by a small margin? I have been thinking about this since the result of Austrian presidental elections, and how more polarized the politics in Europe is becoming, while trying to figure out if there is a way how to move politics to a a place where it would strive for finding society-wide consensus and compromise on most issues.
- Zarkonnen 10y ago
  It can be pretty polarized unfortunately. For example, in 2002, an (in my opinion, pretty extreme) anti-immigration referendum was defeated with a margin of 4208 votes. https://www.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/va/20021124/index.html https://www.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/va/20021124/index.html
- Hermel 10y ago
  > Question, how does Switzerland avoid becoming more polarized country with so many referendum questions each year? As a Swiss, I would say a high number of referenda works against polarization. This Sunday, we had to vote on five national questions and additional local ones. This high number of questions makes it very unlikely that you agree on everything even with your family and best friends. Thus, we automatically learn to disagree without getting polarized. My grand-father always encouraged his children to vote even though he knew they nomrally had different opinions and "neutralized" his vote. To him, voting at all was much more important than what the vote was, as long as you vote for what you honestly believe is right. I fully share this view.
  - studentrob 10y ago
    That bit about your grandfather is incredibly mature. I wish we saw this sentiment more often in the US.
- zahllos 10y ago
  A referendum resolution did pass with a small margin and it was controversial. Said initiative was the "initiative contre l'immigration en masse", or in English "Against mass immigration". It was accepted by 50,3% of Swiss voters and 12 Swiss Cantons outright and 5 cantons counting half towards the vote (out of 26). It is controversial, as the implementation of said vote means bringing back immigration quotas for all EU citizens, meaning Switzerland would need to leave the Schengen area. To the EU this means Switzerland would be rejecting a whole set of bilateral agreements, so the implementation of this particular vote is causing a headache for the Swiss government. That said, further referendums on the question of immigration, for example automatically expelling convicted foreigners after their sentence is complete were fairly convincingly rejected. From the Swiss I know, most consider the referendum process to be fairly normal and routine. They receive information booklets presenting both sides of the argument, the view from the government and the view from any political parties who are interested. They make their decision and they decide. It is difficult to explain I think unless you've seen it in action. I am from the UK and we are currently in the middle of the Brexit/Remain campaign. There's not an iota of fact or reason in the current debate and our politicians do things like predict WWIII if we leave and waves of Turkish immigrants if we remain. The whole thing is moronic and embarrassing. There are without a doubt some stupid things said/done here (the black sheep poster by the SVP for example) but the level of political discourse is no way near the level of stupidity in the UK IMO. If you're imagining Trump-esque campaigns every few months, it's basically the polar opposite. Unless you speak the local language and know what you're looking at, you'd hardly notice. At best you will see billboard or two amidst the other adverts and perhaps receive an information leaflet in the post. That's it. Perhaps the Swiss guy or girl above might say it is more obvious perhaps, if you have more Swiss friends than I do or watch a lot of TV, but I don't think, from what I have seen, that it is anywhere near as vitriolic as any other country I know. Source: I'm British and I live in a French-speaking Canton (in spite of my username).
dghughes 10y ago
Who is this basic income aimed at in Switzerland? Somehow I can't picture homeless people living on the streets of Bern but like anywhere else I'm sure there are homeless there people too.

chongli 10y ago

Doesn't the fact that the margin on the no vote was so high put a damper on the enthusiasm for supporters? Or do the Swiss routinely vote over and over again on rewordings of the same idea?

Zarkonnen 10y ago
It does put a damper on things, but yeah, it's not uncommon for more or less the same thing to come up every decade or two. Evergreen topics include immigration reform, nuclear power, and whether Switzerland needs an army.
- chongli 10y ago
  Ahhh. Well, it will be interesting to see how the economy evolves over the next decade and how that might affect a future vote. If tons of Swiss middle class lose their jobs and move down to low class it could be a dramatic reversal.
- jkn 10y ago
  Mandatory health insurance is another good example:[1] In 1890 the constitution was changed by popular vote to give the federal government the authority and duty to establish a health care system, either voluntary or mandatory. A project for mandatory accident and health insurance passed the parliament in 1899, but a referendum was requested and the proposed law was rejected by popular vote in 1900. A new law was passed in 1911, keeping the mandatory accident insurance but leaving the states free to make health insurance voluntary or mandatory. This law survived a referendum in 1912. Attempts at revising the health insurance law failed in the 20's, 40's and 50's. A popular initiative for mandatory health insurance failed the vote in 1974. A counter-project submitted by the government, with mandatory coverage for large risks only, also failed the vote. Finally, another popular initiative for mandatory health insurance is deposited in 1986. The government prepares an indirect counter-project, resulting in a law that includes mandatory health insurance. The law is adopted by the parliament in March 1994, but a referendum is requested. Both the initiative and the referendum on the law are submitted to a popular vote in December 1994. The initiative fails by 76.6% "no" while the counter-project passes by 51.8% "yes". [1] http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/d/D16608.php http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/d/D16608.php
k__ 10y ago
Well, it was 2500 bucks. Maybe 1500 would get more people to vote for it, or something else chagned, etc.
- Zarkonnen 10y ago
  Thing is that Switzerland is a super-expensive country. 1500 would not actually be enough to live on. You can get 4000 working at the till at a supermarket.
  - nickik 10y ago
    The idea of basic income is not to replace jobs. The idea is to give you the basics of living and food. Then you can take on additional work of some kind to improve your overall income. You could live with 1500 if you really wanted to. Its not impossible.
    - herbst 10y ago
      If you do not need any housing (or maybe am ok with a very remote small room)
- vhf 10y ago
  It wasn't 2500 bucks. The text Switzerland voted on today said something like: > 1. The Confederation has to implement a basic income. > 2. This basic income has to be sufficient to live in dignity and participate to public life. > 3. The basic income amount and financing are regulated by law. Nothing regarding the exact amount. Swiss people were asked to vote on an idea, not on a specific amount.
  - m_mueller 10y ago
    Which is exactly what made me turn against it. I want to know what I vote for, leaving it open like that will in the best case lead to a completely watered down compromise and in the worst case a complete mess. The social security system needs to get simplified at the same time. An initiative committee for UBI needs to sit down and come up with a tenable solution, at least for the basic parameters (both spending and financing).
ThomPete 10y ago
No because you have to look at were we came from. 10 years ago people either didn't know what it even was or was against the idea. Only small groups of people here and there even thought it as a potential solution. Now countries like Finland is looking into it. I am pretty confident we are going to end up there, but like many other major changes in society it takes time and thats fine.

a-saleh 10y ago

Question, how does Switzerland avoid becoming more polarized country with so many referendum questions each year? Do you think there is a risk passing a referendum resolution that passed just by a small margin? I have been thinking about this since the result of Austrian presidental elections, and how more polarized the politics in Europe is becoming, while trying to figure out if there is a way how to move politics to a a place where it would strive for finding society-wide consensus and compromise on most issues.

Zarkonnen 10y ago
It can be pretty polarized unfortunately. For example, in 2002, an (in my opinion, pretty extreme) anti-immigration referendum was defeated with a margin of 4208 votes. https://www.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/va/20021124/index.html https://www.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/va/20021124/index.html
Hermel 10y ago
> Question, how does Switzerland avoid becoming more polarized country with so many referendum questions each year? As a Swiss, I would say a high number of referenda works against polarization. This Sunday, we had to vote on five national questions and additional local ones. This high number of questions makes it very unlikely that you agree on everything even with your family and best friends. Thus, we automatically learn to disagree without getting polarized. My grand-father always encouraged his children to vote even though he knew they nomrally had different opinions and "neutralized" his vote. To him, voting at all was much more important than what the vote was, as long as you vote for what you honestly believe is right. I fully share this view.
- studentrob 10y ago
  That bit about your grandfather is incredibly mature. I wish we saw this sentiment more often in the US.
zahllos 10y ago
A referendum resolution did pass with a small margin and it was controversial. Said initiative was the "initiative contre l'immigration en masse", or in English "Against mass immigration". It was accepted by 50,3% of Swiss voters and 12 Swiss Cantons outright and 5 cantons counting half towards the vote (out of 26). It is controversial, as the implementation of said vote means bringing back immigration quotas for all EU citizens, meaning Switzerland would need to leave the Schengen area. To the EU this means Switzerland would be rejecting a whole set of bilateral agreements, so the implementation of this particular vote is causing a headache for the Swiss government. That said, further referendums on the question of immigration, for example automatically expelling convicted foreigners after their sentence is complete were fairly convincingly rejected. From the Swiss I know, most consider the referendum process to be fairly normal and routine. They receive information booklets presenting both sides of the argument, the view from the government and the view from any political parties who are interested. They make their decision and they decide. It is difficult to explain I think unless you've seen it in action. I am from the UK and we are currently in the middle of the Brexit/Remain campaign. There's not an iota of fact or reason in the current debate and our politicians do things like predict WWIII if we leave and waves of Turkish immigrants if we remain. The whole thing is moronic and embarrassing. There are without a doubt some stupid things said/done here (the black sheep poster by the SVP for example) but the level of political discourse is no way near the level of stupidity in the UK IMO. If you're imagining Trump-esque campaigns every few months, it's basically the polar opposite. Unless you speak the local language and know what you're looking at, you'd hardly notice. At best you will see billboard or two amidst the other adverts and perhaps receive an information leaflet in the post. That's it. Perhaps the Swiss guy or girl above might say it is more obvious perhaps, if you have more Swiss friends than I do or watch a lot of TV, but I don't think, from what I have seen, that it is anywhere near as vitriolic as any other country I know. Source: I'm British and I live in a French-speaking Canton (in spite of my username).

dghughes 10y ago

Who is this basic income aimed at in Switzerland? Somehow I can't picture homeless people living on the streets of Bern but like anywhere else I'm sure there are homeless there people too.