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Crime does not have to be violent to deserve drastic penalty.

by mynewtb 10y ago

aminok 10y ago
Anything can be made a crime by passing a law. But only violent and/or fraudulent behavior should be illegal. Laws imprisoning those who refuse to hand over a share of the currency they receive in private trade are unjust, and should be abolished.
zeta0134 10y ago
I feel like the punishment should be appropriate to the crime though. Leave jail for the criminally dangerous, those whose freedom would be a physical danger to others. (Murderers, rapists, etc.) Fraud? If it's money that was gained, then it should be money lost. Fine them into the dirt, but I don't think jail time is appropriate. Making money illegally doesn't make someone a murderer, it just makes then dishonest.
- aoeuasdf1 10y ago
  The problem is then the rich will do a simple expected value computation to decide whether to do fraud. A disproportionate and non monetary punishment will be far more effective at deterring them.
  - Spivak 10y ago
    > The problem is then the rich will do a simple expected value computation to decide whether to do fraud. Then write the law so that the penalty can never possibly be worth the cost. Jail is downright inhumane, and the only reason we should tolerate it is the case when the person is violent and there is good reason to believe that in the absence of imprisonment they will be a danger to others. And they should remain in jail only as long as the threat of danger remains credible.
- tmptmp 10y ago
  >>Fraud? If it's money that was gained, then it should be money lost. Fine them into the dirt, but I don't think jail time is appropriate. That'd acceptable if at least the following conditions hold: a. First and foremost, the fraudster should be ashamed publicly and in a very visible manner on social media, television/radio and newspaper. e.g. The fraudster be made to wear clothes that are deemed filthy and be made to hold a placard stating "I repeat that I am a fraudster and I don't deserve to be a citizen of this nation. I also state that my relatives and my friends and my associates can be fraudsters themselves because they liked to hang out with me. They are free to disassociate themselves from me but if they continue to associate with me you know that they are also fraudsters." This video and news should be sent to all people who are associated with the fraudster. b. the fine should be such that all assets/money belonging to the fraudster should be confiscated and along with all the assets of the relatives that have been linked to the fraudster's money; (it's very easy to game the system otherwise). The relatives should be given a notice that they should declare all such linked assets/money voluntarily and should return the same within a specified period and failing to do so they should also be declared as party to the original fraud and thus fraudsters themselves and be prosecuted. c. The fraudster should be banned from doing any financial sector job; only physical labour jobs should be allowed. d. The fraudster should not be allowed to leave the country e. All the money the fraudster has spent on the legal battle (fee of the attorney) should also be confiscated from the attorneys (this is also important, as the attorneys will be forced to act more ethically not because they are honest but just because of the risk involved). I know they will find other ways to get rewarded but at least those will not be as straight forward. The attorneys also should be given a notice that they should declare all such linked assets/money voluntarily and should return the same within a specified period and failing to do so they should also be declared as party to the original fraud and thus fraudsters themselves and be prosecuted. f. Any money not recovered from the fraudster should automatically be treated as loan-default and the fraudster be prosecuted for default in addition to the fraud charges and the applicable legal process be initiated. In short, even the filthy rich fraudsters [1] should not be able to game the system. The punishment should be such a deterrent that even the filthy rich fraudsters should shiver at the thought of it. >>Making money illegally doesn't make someone a murderer, it just makes then dishonest. But they are still causing irreparable harm to the societal fabric and other people will fast lose their faith the legal system if the filthy rich fraudsters don't get punished in a big way. [1] anyone controlling the big banks and big corporations like Goldman Sachs.

Crime does not have to be violent to deserve drastic penalty.

by mynewtb 10y ago

Crime does not have to be violent to deserve drastic penalty.

Anything can be made a crime by passing a law. But only violent and/or fraudulent behavior should be illegal. Laws imprisoning those who refuse to hand over a share of the currency they receive in private trade are unjust, and should be abolished.

zeta0134 10y ago

I feel like the punishment should be appropriate to the crime though. Leave jail for the criminally dangerous, those whose freedom would be a physical danger to others. (Murderers, rapists, etc.) Fraud? If it's money that was gained, then it should be money lost. Fine them into the dirt, but I don't think jail time is appropriate. Making money illegally doesn't make someone a murderer, it just makes then dishonest.

aoeuasdf1 10y ago
The problem is then the rich will do a simple expected value computation to decide whether to do fraud. A disproportionate and non monetary punishment will be far more effective at deterring them.
- Spivak 10y ago
  > The problem is then the rich will do a simple expected value computation to decide whether to do fraud. Then write the law so that the penalty can never possibly be worth the cost. Jail is downright inhumane, and the only reason we should tolerate it is the case when the person is violent and there is good reason to believe that in the absence of imprisonment they will be a danger to others. And they should remain in jail only as long as the threat of danger remains credible.
tmptmp 10y ago
>>Fraud? If it's money that was gained, then it should be money lost. Fine them into the dirt, but I don't think jail time is appropriate. That'd acceptable if at least the following conditions hold: a. First and foremost, the fraudster should be ashamed publicly and in a very visible manner on social media, television/radio and newspaper. e.g. The fraudster be made to wear clothes that are deemed filthy and be made to hold a placard stating "I repeat that I am a fraudster and I don't deserve to be a citizen of this nation. I also state that my relatives and my friends and my associates can be fraudsters themselves because they liked to hang out with me. They are free to disassociate themselves from me but if they continue to associate with me you know that they are also fraudsters." This video and news should be sent to all people who are associated with the fraudster. b. the fine should be such that all assets/money belonging to the fraudster should be confiscated and along with all the assets of the relatives that have been linked to the fraudster's money; (it's very easy to game the system otherwise). The relatives should be given a notice that they should declare all such linked assets/money voluntarily and should return the same within a specified period and failing to do so they should also be declared as party to the original fraud and thus fraudsters themselves and be prosecuted. c. The fraudster should be banned from doing any financial sector job; only physical labour jobs should be allowed. d. The fraudster should not be allowed to leave the country e. All the money the fraudster has spent on the legal battle (fee of the attorney) should also be confiscated from the attorneys (this is also important, as the attorneys will be forced to act more ethically not because they are honest but just because of the risk involved). I know they will find other ways to get rewarded but at least those will not be as straight forward. The attorneys also should be given a notice that they should declare all such linked assets/money voluntarily and should return the same within a specified period and failing to do so they should also be declared as party to the original fraud and thus fraudsters themselves and be prosecuted. f. Any money not recovered from the fraudster should automatically be treated as loan-default and the fraudster be prosecuted for default in addition to the fraud charges and the applicable legal process be initiated. In short, even the filthy rich fraudsters [1] should not be able to game the system. The punishment should be such a deterrent that even the filthy rich fraudsters should shiver at the thought of it. >>Making money illegally doesn't make someone a murderer, it just makes then dishonest. But they are still causing irreparable harm to the societal fabric and other people will fast lose their faith the legal system if the filthy rich fraudsters don't get punished in a big way. [1] anyone controlling the big banks and big corporations like Goldman Sachs.