4 ms·

Not so fast. Businesses come in all shapes and sizes. Lots of businesses consist of a single person or just a few people or all family members. It isn't clear

by gwright 10y ago

Not so fast. Businesses come in all shapes and sizes. Lots of businesses consist of a single person or just a few people or all family members. It isn't clear at all that the government should prevent an independent contractor from deciding who they want to work with. Your comment, as written, is an example of a trivial dismissal of a legitimate concern regarding freedom of association and contract. There are indeed attempts to force small businesses to conform. This one: http://aclu-co.org/court-rules-bakery-illegally-discriminated-against-gay-couple/ http://aclu-co.org/court-rules-bakery-illegally-discriminate... comes to mind.

Frondo 10y ago
I think it's clear; if you're running a business, you shouldn't be allowed to turn would-be customers away and say "it's because you're black" or whatever. That's not good for society, to permit that kind of casual discrimination. We've been down that road, and things weren't getting better until laws started being passed. I mean, come on, if you're such an asshole that you really, really need to discriminate against people for whatever reason, then say "sorry, we're booked up". Otherwise, make the stupid cake, whether the couple is gay, or mixed-race, or whatever. And if you can't do that, don't start your own business.
- ams6110 10y ago
  "Sorry, no vacancy" was the standard line for hotels who didn't want to rent a room to blacks. But I think there is some kind of persepective that has to be maintained. For something that isn't an essential public accomodation, let the money talk. If your baker won't bake you a cake, give your money to one who will. I think there is room to tolerate different points of view on who a person should be forced to accept as a customer. If you run a web development business and were approached by a customer to build a (legal) porn site, but pornography is against your personal values, should you be obligated to accept the job, when there are countless other web developers who will gladly take the work? Or be forced to choose between earning a living at your craft vs. compromising your values?
  - unprepare 10y ago
    >But I think there is some kind of persepective that has to be maintained its amazing when people who completely lack the perspective of the civil rights era, claim that we all need a little more perspective. >For something that isn't an essential public accomodation, let the money talk. If your baker won't bake you a cake, give your money to one who will. right, i mean - if i owned a building i certainly wouldnt want black people using my water fountains. and hey whats the big deal? its not some essential public service they are being denied. theres water fountains and restaurants everywhere! as long as gays have a separate but equal method of gaining access to cakes, whats the problem?
    - ams6110 10y ago
      Yep, I put water fountains and restaurants in a public accomodation category. They are buildings and businesses explicitly serving the walk-in public. An independent/small family bakery, or photographer, etc. who may not even have a retail storefront who won't service gay weddings, I would consider "not a real problem" because they really are only limiting their own business by operating that way.
      - edmccard 10y ago
        >An independent/small family bakery, or photographer, etc. who may not even have a retail storefront who won't service gay weddings, I would consider "not a real problem" So a "No gays allowed" sign on a walk-in retail storefront would be bad, but a "Gays need not call" ad in the yellow pages[1] would be "not a real problem"? [1] Or however these non-storefront businesses connect with customers.
        ams6110 10y ago
        I think a sign/notice would be good. Then you'd know and could decide to not patronize the place, or protest it, etc. accordingly.
      - psook 10y ago
        That's cool, but the world doesn't work by what you specifically call a public accommodation. There are dinner clubs with membership requirements (look here for a big hint as to how to continue refusing service to 'undesirables' legally), there are office parks with water fountains behind fences. The solution, if you don't want to do business with the public, is to not do business with the public. If you choose to be publically available, that's on you. Note: if your services require licensure, then it's not your right to provide those services to begin with--it's a privilege you've been granted and that will come with extra legal stipulations by that very nature.

by gwright 10y ago

Frondo 10y ago

I think it's clear; if you're running a business, you shouldn't be allowed to turn would-be customers away and say "it's because you're black" or whatever. That's not good for society, to permit that kind of casual discrimination. We've been down that road, and things weren't getting better until laws started being passed. I mean, come on, if you're such an asshole that you really, really need to discriminate against people for whatever reason, then say "sorry, we're booked up". Otherwise, make the stupid cake, whether the couple is gay, or mixed-race, or whatever. And if you can't do that, don't start your own business.

ams6110 10y ago
"Sorry, no vacancy" was the standard line for hotels who didn't want to rent a room to blacks. But I think there is some kind of persepective that has to be maintained. For something that isn't an essential public accomodation, let the money talk. If your baker won't bake you a cake, give your money to one who will. I think there is room to tolerate different points of view on who a person should be forced to accept as a customer. If you run a web development business and were approached by a customer to build a (legal) porn site, but pornography is against your personal values, should you be obligated to accept the job, when there are countless other web developers who will gladly take the work? Or be forced to choose between earning a living at your craft vs. compromising your values?
- unprepare 10y ago
  >But I think there is some kind of persepective that has to be maintained its amazing when people who completely lack the perspective of the civil rights era, claim that we all need a little more perspective. >For something that isn't an essential public accomodation, let the money talk. If your baker won't bake you a cake, give your money to one who will. right, i mean - if i owned a building i certainly wouldnt want black people using my water fountains. and hey whats the big deal? its not some essential public service they are being denied. theres water fountains and restaurants everywhere! as long as gays have a separate but equal method of gaining access to cakes, whats the problem?
  - ams6110 10y ago
    Yep, I put water fountains and restaurants in a public accomodation category. They are buildings and businesses explicitly serving the walk-in public. An independent/small family bakery, or photographer, etc. who may not even have a retail storefront who won't service gay weddings, I would consider "not a real problem" because they really are only limiting their own business by operating that way.
    - edmccard 10y ago
      >An independent/small family bakery, or photographer, etc. who may not even have a retail storefront who won't service gay weddings, I would consider "not a real problem" So a "No gays allowed" sign on a walk-in retail storefront would be bad, but a "Gays need not call" ad in the yellow pages[1] would be "not a real problem"? [1] Or however these non-storefront businesses connect with customers.
      - ams6110 10y ago
        I think a sign/notice would be good. Then you'd know and could decide to not patronize the place, or protest it, etc. accordingly.
    - psook 10y ago
      That's cool, but the world doesn't work by what you specifically call a public accommodation. There are dinner clubs with membership requirements (look here for a big hint as to how to continue refusing service to 'undesirables' legally), there are office parks with water fountains behind fences. The solution, if you don't want to do business with the public, is to not do business with the public. If you choose to be publically available, that's on you. Note: if your services require licensure, then it's not your right to provide those services to begin with--it's a privilege you've been granted and that will come with extra legal stipulations by that very nature.