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All? female Tor devs univocally talk about rape/sexual misconduct while not all mentioning him personally it seems quite clear that these claims are not underst

by nisa 10y ago

All? female Tor devs univocally talk about rape/sexual misconduct while not all mentioning him personally it seems quite clear that these claims are not understood as an external smear campaign but a long lasting issue within Tor and no one that is knowing him is stepping up to defend him. At least on Twitter. Tor acknowledges that there are rumours and that the issue is investigated. I'm kind of shocked about the methods (character assassination website, @TimeToDieJake Twitter account) but who am I to judge. This looks like it's serious or should at least taken seriously. Difficult to judge as an outsider through.

maerF0x0 10y ago
All of these vigillante justice style attacks are an affront to true justice which should have been to speak to his superiors and to the police. Once all the data has been collected and a jury has made a choice, then we can make terrible websites about him. He's been treated as guilty before given a chance to be proven as such.
- venomsnake 10y ago
  There are libel laws. And he may even find a friendly billionaire to bankroll his lawsuit. But here is the thing - it is the public that is guilty of treating him like guilty. There is nothing wrong with airing accusations. But the proper reaction is to not take a side - to say - lets the court figure it out. But we as a society are unable to do so. We don't want justice - we want to have it our way. Preferably now.
  - maerF0x0 10y ago
    I will grant a great quote however "Justice delayed is justice denied"[1] . That is why its important for victims to goto authorities IMMEDIATELY. Not 40 yrs later, not after the next victim speaks up. RIGHT NOW. I'm sure there are complications I'm glossing over, having never been a victim of sexual assault. But the timing is imperative. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_delayed_is_justice_denied https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_delayed_is_justice_den...
- citricsquid 10y ago
  I hate this argument and it illicits an emotional response, I will try and be measured in my response, usually this argument takes the form of "innocent until proven guilty". I have sat as a member of the jury on a case in which a man was accused of sexually abusing a child many, many times. I sat in that jury, I listened to the evidence and I determined beyond reasonable doubt that the accused was guilty. He is a rapist. As a member of the jury, that is my determination, I stand by that decision to this day. I was unfortunate enough to sit on a jury with a majority of jurors that made the determination that he was not guilty beyond reasonable doubt, and unfortunately that caused a mistrial, and unfortunately the prosecution decided not to pursue a retrial. The accused, the rapist, walked free from court. Your argument is that I cannot stand by my determination, that I must sit here and tell you that he is not a rapist, that he did not abuse that child again and again and again, because I was unfortunate enough to sit in a room with people who don't understand sexual abuse. People walk free from court, either by way of a mistrial or because the jury deliver a not guilty verdict, all the time, and these results are frequently delivered not because the person is innocent but because of errors made by the jury, the prosecution or by the police. Some people don't even make it to court because prosecutors can make decisions that aren't aligned with justice or fairness but with their own self interest. As a private citizen you have every right to use your knowledge and understanding of a case to make a determination about the accused and you have every right to let that determination influence your actions. I will never allow the man I judged to be a rapist go near my children. It is morally impossible to remain neutral in this conflict. The bystander is forced to take sides. It is very tempting to take the side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks is that the bystander do nothing. He appeals to the universal desire to see, hear and speak no evil. The victim, on the contrary, asks the bystander to share the burden of pain. The victim demands action, engagement and remembering... https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/542700.Trauma_and_Recovery https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/542700.Trauma_and_Recove... [transcribed from this book] edit: I would also like to add that courts do not deal in proof, they deal in evidence. A guilty verdict delivered if Jacob Applebaum faces criminal charges does not prove he is guilty of what he has been accused, a not guilty verdict delivered if Jacob Applebaum faces criminal charges does not he is innocent of what he has been accused. The justice system does not deal in absolutes, it doesn't deal in proof.
- daxorid 10y ago
  Ordinarily, you would find agreement with me. But it's instructive to note that both Andrea and Meredith have been firmly opposed to social justice mobs on every other issue prior to this. I would consider their claims with some additional weight, in light of this.
  - maerF0x0 10y ago
    Their firm opposition of others' justice mobs and then their uptake of one for their own purposes is a hypocrisy and IMO a little more repugnant than at least a consistent moral stance.
    - kkirsche 10y ago
      Fully agreed.
- powera 10y ago
  People saying why they think he is guilty isn't the same as being treated as guilty. In this case, the people did talk to his superiors, and they appear to have done as little as legally possible about it until there were public statements.
- rodgerd 10y ago
  > All of these vigillante justice style attacks are an affront to true justice which should have been to speak to his superiors and to the police. Just like Tor is an affront to justice. People with concerns about their government should not seek to anonymously smear their government on the Internet, they should speak to the proper authorities.
hellbanner 10y ago
Which site? I searched for "female tor devs sexual claims" on DDG & Google and didn't see anything relevant beyond a link to this thread.
- nisa 10y ago
  At least these 3 Twitter accounts from devs are pretty clear: https://twitter.com/puellavulnerata https://twitter.com/puellavulnerata https://twitter.com/postessive https://twitter.com/postessive https://twitter.com/isislovecruft https://twitter.com/isislovecruft As well as https://twitter.com/maradydd https://twitter.com/maradydd (not a dev afaik but associated with Tor?) This is also pretty clear: https://www.reddit.com/r/TOR/comments/4mkh8j/confirmed_jacob_appelbaum_left_tor_amid_sexual/d3w9aw5 https://www.reddit.com/r/TOR/comments/4mkh8j/confirmed_jacob...
  - vmorgulis 10y ago
    Thank you a lot nisa. You're right it's very clear (especially the reddit thread). I like a lot this kind comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/TOR/comments/4mkh8j/confirmed_jacob_appelbaum_left_tor_amid_sexual/d3waejs https://www.reddit.com/r/TOR/comments/4mkh8j/confirmed_jacob...

by nisa 10y ago

maerF0x0 10y ago

All of these vigillante justice style attacks are an affront to true justice which should have been to speak to his superiors and to the police. Once all the data has been collected and a jury has made a choice, then we can make terrible websites about him. He's been treated as guilty before given a chance to be proven as such.

venomsnake 10y ago
There are libel laws. And he may even find a friendly billionaire to bankroll his lawsuit. But here is the thing - it is the public that is guilty of treating him like guilty. There is nothing wrong with airing accusations. But the proper reaction is to not take a side - to say - lets the court figure it out. But we as a society are unable to do so. We don't want justice - we want to have it our way. Preferably now.
- maerF0x0 10y ago
  I will grant a great quote however "Justice delayed is justice denied"[1] . That is why its important for victims to goto authorities IMMEDIATELY. Not 40 yrs later, not after the next victim speaks up. RIGHT NOW. I'm sure there are complications I'm glossing over, having never been a victim of sexual assault. But the timing is imperative. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_delayed_is_justice_denied https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_delayed_is_justice_den...
citricsquid 10y ago
I hate this argument and it illicits an emotional response, I will try and be measured in my response, usually this argument takes the form of "innocent until proven guilty". I have sat as a member of the jury on a case in which a man was accused of sexually abusing a child many, many times. I sat in that jury, I listened to the evidence and I determined beyond reasonable doubt that the accused was guilty. He is a rapist. As a member of the jury, that is my determination, I stand by that decision to this day. I was unfortunate enough to sit on a jury with a majority of jurors that made the determination that he was not guilty beyond reasonable doubt, and unfortunately that caused a mistrial, and unfortunately the prosecution decided not to pursue a retrial. The accused, the rapist, walked free from court. Your argument is that I cannot stand by my determination, that I must sit here and tell you that he is not a rapist, that he did not abuse that child again and again and again, because I was unfortunate enough to sit in a room with people who don't understand sexual abuse. People walk free from court, either by way of a mistrial or because the jury deliver a not guilty verdict, all the time, and these results are frequently delivered not because the person is innocent but because of errors made by the jury, the prosecution or by the police. Some people don't even make it to court because prosecutors can make decisions that aren't aligned with justice or fairness but with their own self interest. As a private citizen you have every right to use your knowledge and understanding of a case to make a determination about the accused and you have every right to let that determination influence your actions. I will never allow the man I judged to be a rapist go near my children. It is morally impossible to remain neutral in this conflict. The bystander is forced to take sides. It is very tempting to take the side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks is that the bystander do nothing. He appeals to the universal desire to see, hear and speak no evil. The victim, on the contrary, asks the bystander to share the burden of pain. The victim demands action, engagement and remembering... https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/542700.Trauma_and_Recovery https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/542700.Trauma_and_Recove... [transcribed from this book] edit: I would also like to add that courts do not deal in proof, they deal in evidence. A guilty verdict delivered if Jacob Applebaum faces criminal charges does not prove he is guilty of what he has been accused, a not guilty verdict delivered if Jacob Applebaum faces criminal charges does not he is innocent of what he has been accused. The justice system does not deal in absolutes, it doesn't deal in proof.
daxorid 10y ago
Ordinarily, you would find agreement with me. But it's instructive to note that both Andrea and Meredith have been firmly opposed to social justice mobs on every other issue prior to this. I would consider their claims with some additional weight, in light of this.
- maerF0x0 10y ago
  Their firm opposition of others' justice mobs and then their uptake of one for their own purposes is a hypocrisy and IMO a little more repugnant than at least a consistent moral stance.
  - kkirsche 10y ago
    Fully agreed.
powera 10y ago
People saying why they think he is guilty isn't the same as being treated as guilty. In this case, the people did talk to his superiors, and they appear to have done as little as legally possible about it until there were public statements.
rodgerd 10y ago
> All of these vigillante justice style attacks are an affront to true justice which should have been to speak to his superiors and to the police. Just like Tor is an affront to justice. People with concerns about their government should not seek to anonymously smear their government on the Internet, they should speak to the proper authorities.

hellbanner 10y ago

Which site? I searched for "female tor devs sexual claims" on DDG & Google and didn't see anything relevant beyond a link to this thread.

nisa 10y ago
At least these 3 Twitter accounts from devs are pretty clear: https://twitter.com/puellavulnerata https://twitter.com/puellavulnerata https://twitter.com/postessive https://twitter.com/postessive https://twitter.com/isislovecruft https://twitter.com/isislovecruft As well as https://twitter.com/maradydd https://twitter.com/maradydd (not a dev afaik but associated with Tor?) This is also pretty clear: https://www.reddit.com/r/TOR/comments/4mkh8j/confirmed_jacob_appelbaum_left_tor_amid_sexual/d3w9aw5 https://www.reddit.com/r/TOR/comments/4mkh8j/confirmed_jacob...
- vmorgulis 10y ago
  Thank you a lot nisa. You're right it's very clear (especially the reddit thread). I like a lot this kind comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/TOR/comments/4mkh8j/confirmed_jacob_appelbaum_left_tor_amid_sexual/d3waejs https://www.reddit.com/r/TOR/comments/4mkh8j/confirmed_jacob...