5 ms·
A wild hypothesis here. One thing I noticed in "pre-Western" diets that's absent from modern ones is unpasteurized dairy. All milk sold in Western countries is
by etangent 10y ago
A wild hypothesis here. One thing I noticed in "pre-Western" diets that's absent from modern ones is unpasteurized dairy. All milk sold in Western countries is pasteurized (treated thermally to kill most of its bacteria). If you leave on a shelf, it will remain unspoiled for quite a long time compared to unpasteurized, but when it does spoil, it becomes completely undrinkable, with foul smell. Unpasteurized milk, on the other hand, has a much shorter shelf life, however the spoiled product is acidic and yogurt-like, has no foul smell, and is (mostly) safe to consume, even by people with some degree of lactose intolerance (it has had most of its lactose converted to lactic acid, hence the sour taste). This so-called Soured milk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soured_milk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soured_milk) is extremely commonly consumed in many Eastern European countries that don't have Western food safety standards.
While there may be other beneficial (to the immune system) things happening in Russian Karelia, I can't help but wonder if the absence of unpasteurized dairy is the single massive thing that causes failure of gut microbiomes in the modern world.
- dTal 10y agoConsidering that eating dairy at all is a relatively modern invention (post-agriculture), I suspect not. Is there any evidence at all for the beneficial effect of bioactive dairy products on the gut microbiome, beyond yoghurt commercials for middle-aged women?
- baldfat 10y agoName one mammal besides humans who drink milk as adults? P.S. I love cheese and will forever eat it but I don't drink milk.
- maxerickson 10y agoIt's cheating, but adult cats like dairy. A lot.
- pingec 10y agoWhat exactly is your point? There are many things people eat and do that other mammals don't.
- baldfat 10y agoMilk is not necessary for humans. AKA kids must be given milk everyday in our schools for them to be healthy. Its a treat and not a requirement.
- lmm 10y agoDrinking milk has been around for more than long enough for (some of) us to have evolved dependence on it. Not saying that we have, but "other animals get by without it" is not a slam-dunk case.
- tnorthcutt 10y agoErr, dependence? Maybe a preference, sure, but how are any humans dependent on cows' milk?
- emptybits 10y agoWhen presented with milk, many adult mammals (including some humans) will drink it. Humans are simply better than most at getting their way with other species -- this is the primary difference, is it not? For example, I have seen apparently healthy and non-starving adult black bears, some dogs, and cats happily consume cow milk if it is available. There are pros and cons to it, for sure, but there is clearly nutrition present.
- esolyt 10y ago> healthy and non-starving adult black bears, some dogs, and cats happily consume cow milk if it is available. How does that prove milk is good for us? Or for them? Non-starving animals and humans can also enjoy the taste of junk food, we don't judge junk food's nutritional value based on that.
- harry_corn 10y agoWhen a predator eats a pregnant prey animal they will consume its milk. It doesn't happen very often but it could still contribute more than we think.
- sosborn 10y agoHow does the original question prove that it isn't healthy for us?
- emptybits 10y ago> How does that prove milk is good for us? Or for them? Such proof was neither requested nor attempted. The challenge I responded to was, "Name one mammal besides humans who drink milk as adults?" Clever cats have domesticated their humans (who then domesticate cows) to provide milk on a regular basis. ;-)
- reitanqild 10y agoThat's because they don't get it isn't it? Many of them will happily drink if they get. Like cats as has already been mentioned, or our horse when we were young, who would sneak upon our dairy cows to steal milk.
- rosser 10y agoI find it really interesting that all of the replies to this comment take the fact that animals will consume dairy if it's available as an argument in favor of human consumption of it. Humans are the only animals, that as adults, take the milk of another mammal for their own consumption. For that matter, other than the isolated, exceptional cases of a lactating mammal adopting the orphans of another mammal and nursing them, humans are the only mammals that consume the milk of a different species. Cats drinking from a saucer of milk put on the floor in front of them is nothing like milking a cow — except, I suppose, at the level of digesting lactose.
- reitanqild 10y agoAgain, our mare happily stole milk from dairy cows.
- etangent 10y agoWhat I find interesting is that the health benefit (or non-benefit) of milk for adult humans is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Autoimmune disease (the topic of the original article) develops at a very early age.
- maxerickson 10y agoMany autoimmune diseases develop in adults.
- powertower 10y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb__daXOQJ0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb__daXOQJ0
- etangent 10y ago> Name one mammal besides humans who drink milk as adults? I'm sorry, but your comment is completely irrelevant to the discussion. The original article is about autoimmune disease that develops at an early age. Whether you drink milk as an adult or not would have had no impact on the development of the disease. If you like your non-milk diet, you can keep your non-milk diet.
- the_watcher 10y ago> Name one mammal besides humans who drink milk as adults? Name one mammal besides humans who regularly cooks food before eating it.
- etangent 10y ago> Is there any evidence at all for the beneficial effect of bioactive dairy products on the gut microbiome, beyond yoghurt commercials for middle-aged women? 1) Considering that the original article is about autoimmune disease, it's possible that there is a critical time period during early age (<3-4 years) when it is important to consume a particular substance, and beyond which the substance is completely ineffective---i.e. marketing to middle-aged ladies is great because they have money to spend, but the fact that this marketing exists is besides the point. 2) It wasn't my goal to present a finding for which there is lots of available evidence, but rather the opposite---to suggest a possibly under-explored area.
- ivm 10y agoI lived most of my life in St.Petersburg and was spending each summer vacation in the country side near Karelia. Homemade soured milk is nowhere as popular as kefir from stores. Also all the shelf milk is pasteurized, you need to know a cow owner to get raw milk.
- danielmorozoff 10y agoHad similar experience.
- etangent 10y agoIt's possible that kefir contains the necessary bacteria, or that children at an early age have exposure to them through kefir.
- bonobo3000 10y agoConsuming "probiotics" is a very similar idea to this. It promotes exactly this kind of food - yogurts, kefir etc.
- ivanhoe 10y agoIt's possibly one of the things, but I doubt there's a single factor in play here. You could have a similar hypothesis about urban people having less contact with dirt and mud and animal feces and all kinds of wild plants and insects that one living in a rural area would commonly encounter throughout her life. The other theory blames the lack of parasites that suppress our immunes system reactions. Some say it's the pollution in urban areas. And it's probably some sort of the combination of all of these, since they all are certainly a factor influencing our immune systems.