4 ms·

> we can't in reality solve chess and go with computers I don't think this is correct. Both could be solved by determining the perfect move for each board arra

by ybird 10y ago

> we can't in reality solve chess and go with computers I don't think this is correct. Both could be solved by determining the perfect move for each board arrangement, leading to a very simple, but very data-heavy solution (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_number - number of chess positions somewhere below 2^155 - and also need to track for each position whether can empassant for each pawn like X-FEN does, and http://tromp.github.io/go/legal.html http://tromp.github.io/go/legal.html - number of Go positions for 19x19 board ~2.081681994 * 10^170, though other-sized boards would each need their own set of solutions). In addition, both Chess and Go engines have beaten masters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human%E2%80%93computer_chess_matches https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human%E2%80%93computer_chess_m... http://www.wired.com/2016/03/googles-ai-wins-fifth-final-game-go-genius-lee-sedol/ http://www.wired.com/2016/03/googles-ai-wins-fifth-final-gam... You could be correct about the human brain being incapable of storing all of the Chess or Go solutions. While the brain could perhaps memorize enough strategies and board positions to substitute, the theoretical maximum of 2.5 PB may not be enough to hold all board positions and metadata. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-memory-capacity/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-memory...

omnigoat 10y ago
"In reality" means that the working set of memory and time complexity on solving Chess (let alone Go) is vastly too large for computers now and in the future. I don't get why you tacked on computers beating grandmasters/9-dans, since that has nothing to do with solving the game. Oh you added something on the end. Well, augmenting a human brain doesn't change the search space of solving Chess and Go (especially Go). You may be underestimating how large those problems are.
- ybird 10y ago
  I told you how many solutions you'd have to store. I don't see how that is underestimating.
chongli 10y ago
I don't think you realize how large of a number 2^155 is. The number of atoms comprising the entire planet earth is on the order of 10^49 or 2^162 [0]. Thus, to store all possible chess positions using only the material available on planet earth you'd have only 2^7 or 128 atoms available to store each one. All of this is ignoring the amount of energy you'd need to operate such a device, which is even more staggering. [0] http://www.fnal.gov/pub/science/inquiring/questions/atoms.html http://www.fnal.gov/pub/science/inquiring/questions/atoms.ht...
- ybird 10y ago
  A petabyte of storage would have been unthinkable 20 years ago. Think of the not too distant future.
  - ybird 10y ago
    Using the following dataset of year to max drive size in bytes per year [1a][1b]: {1956,5.00E+06},{1979,5.71E+08},{1980,1.00E+09},{1991,1.00E+09},{1992,2.10E+09},{1997,1.68E+10},{2003,3.70E+10},{2005,4.00E+10},{2006,1.60E+11},{2006,7.50E+11},{2016,5.00E+12} Linear regression provides the equation: year = 4.222874399 ln(numBytes) + 1896.534826 Assuming the average bits required to represent a board state is 160 [2], then: 2^155 positions x 160 bits = 9.13e47 bytes 4.222874399 ln(9.13e47) + 1896.534826 = 2362.87979 So, a projection shows that by year 2362, we could have a single storage drive holding every permutation of a board state, so it would be less than 2 drives to store the states along with the move to make for that board. Add more drives and you pull that date in. References: 1a. http://www.pcworld.com/article/127105/article.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/127105/article.html 1b. http://www.computerworld.com/article/2473980/data-storage-solutions/data-storage-solutions-143723-storage-now-and-then.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2473980/data-storage-so... 2. http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/19397/smallest-chess-board-compression http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/19397/smallest-c...

by ybird 10y ago

omnigoat 10y ago

"In reality" means that the working set of memory and time complexity on solving Chess (let alone Go) is vastly too large for computers now and in the future. I don't get why you tacked on computers beating grandmasters/9-dans, since that has nothing to do with solving the game. Oh you added something on the end. Well, augmenting a human brain doesn't change the search space of solving Chess and Go (especially Go). You may be underestimating how large those problems are.

ybird 10y ago
I told you how many solutions you'd have to store. I don't see how that is underestimating.

chongli 10y ago

I don't think you realize how large of a number 2^155 is. The number of atoms comprising the entire planet earth is on the order of 10^49 or 2^162 [0]. Thus, to store all possible chess positions using only the material available on planet earth you'd have only 2^7 or 128 atoms available to store each one. All of this is ignoring the amount of energy you'd need to operate such a device, which is even more staggering. [0] http://www.fnal.gov/pub/science/inquiring/questions/atoms.html http://www.fnal.gov/pub/science/inquiring/questions/atoms.ht...

ybird 10y ago
A petabyte of storage would have been unthinkable 20 years ago. Think of the not too distant future.
- ybird 10y ago
  Using the following dataset of year to max drive size in bytes per year [1a][1b]: {1956,5.00E+06},{1979,5.71E+08},{1980,1.00E+09},{1991,1.00E+09},{1992,2.10E+09},{1997,1.68E+10},{2003,3.70E+10},{2005,4.00E+10},{2006,1.60E+11},{2006,7.50E+11},{2016,5.00E+12} Linear regression provides the equation: year = 4.222874399 ln(numBytes) + 1896.534826 Assuming the average bits required to represent a board state is 160 [2], then: 2^155 positions x 160 bits = 9.13e47 bytes 4.222874399 ln(9.13e47) + 1896.534826 = 2362.87979 So, a projection shows that by year 2362, we could have a single storage drive holding every permutation of a board state, so it would be less than 2 drives to store the states along with the move to make for that board. Add more drives and you pull that date in. References: 1a. http://www.pcworld.com/article/127105/article.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/127105/article.html 1b. http://www.computerworld.com/article/2473980/data-storage-solutions/data-storage-solutions-143723-storage-now-and-then.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2473980/data-storage-so... 2. http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/19397/smallest-chess-board-compression http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/19397/smallest-c...