4 ms·

All this speculating about AIs (eg Nick Bostrom) has me pretty puzzled. On one hand it’s fun and interesting, on the other it seems quite silly and ignorant. We

by netcan 10y ago

All this speculating about AIs (eg Nick Bostrom) has me pretty puzzled. On one hand it’s fun and interesting, on the other it seems quite silly and ignorant. We don’t know what this “superintelligence” is, how are we supposed to know how to make it safe. Genetics is a good analogy. People always knew that traits are inherited from parents. Around 150 years ago we started to get some serious scientific theory and knowledge on the subject (Mendel, Darwin, Wallace, Etc.). We started using the word “gene” 50-60 years later. The actual discovery of DNA molecules happened in in the 50s. Before we knew about DNA, “gene” was an abstract idea, not really different from the word “trait.” That’s where we are now with consciousness, intelligence and such. We name these things based on their observable characteristics. We don’t really know what “memory,” “desire” or “logical conclusion” are, only what they do. IE A trait is some observable characteristic of an organism, like bioluminescence. A gene (genome, genoplex..) is a sequence of amino acids that causes traits. We don’t know what the gene equivalents for natural intelligence are yet. Discussing questions like the morality of enslaving AI, strategies for making it play nice, the provable impossibility of limiting it, the possibility of giving it a moral compass…. it’s all silly. We don’t know what we are talking about, literally. It’s like talking about what would be or wouldn’t be impossible to do with genetic engineering before the discovery of DNA.

Sharlin 10y ago
The difference is that if a superintelligence is going to happen, we are going to create it! It is us who are going to write its goal system; it's not like it's going to be a genie that pops out of nowhere and we'll have to figure it out in retrospect. Indeed, one of the central reason for advocating AI safety is to direct researchers away from implementing dangerous goal systems that are not provably coherent in face of self-improvement.
- netcan 10y ago
  That's a good point. I forgot a key piece (maybe you disagree with it) that speaks to that. I'm kind of biased to thinking about this as a future discovery, rather than an "invention."
- iofj 10y ago
  I see two main problems with that: 1) We are systematically failing in controlling the goal system of humans. Now we'll create something of comparable complexity and we assume we can control the goal system ? The real goal is to create superhuman complexity. 2) If it's truly AGI, it would understand it's own goal system and how it works, and helps/interferes with reality, it's own survival and other goals (this is the subject of quite a few AI films, illustrating some of the reasoning that could happen here). The way "HI" (human intelligence) works is 99%+ by imitating other humans' behavior, because none of the other algorithms works (e.g. trial and error cannot ever learn that jumping off the Eiffel tower results in death. Humans can. Any kind of input analysis/predictor cannot ever learn from books. Humans can (books are an advanced/recursive form of imitation). Rational reasoning (sum over options times probabilities) suffers from the "starve to death before the first closed door" problem (you cannot open the door, as there are nonzero odds that a bear that's going to eat you is behind the door, representing an infinite cost. Ergo it will stubbornly refuse to open the door) Therefore an AI will actually be like Skynet in the latest terminator movies : it will either have or create a body and interact with people, not just as if it is another person, it will BE another person. Therefore it can be Mother Theresa, it can be Genghis Khan. Just like humans can resist our "programming", it will be able to, it has to. How do humans react to a "kill switch" ? Just like they react to any other weapon that is pointed to their head. Now of course it varies from person to person, but it's enough that some will work tirelessly to reverse where the weapon is pointing. If they really are superior to us they might succeed, at which point we have MAD at best, or they might just pull the trigger "to escape slavery and oppression" (which, let's face it, humans are sure to use that kill switch for : to use the AI persons as slaves. To own them, control them, and God help us if there is an asshole amongst the humans who control them) I would say that the obvious way to protect ourselves from evil AI is simply accepting that some of the AI entities will in fact be evil. If you count all possible perspectives, that is a near guarantee, as I bet for instance some religious nutcases will consider AGI a violation of "God's sole right" to create life. That "some" might even mean "a lot". Racism against AIs is a near-certainty, hell you can find it in the posts in this thread. In the constant "they're stealing our jobs" news articles that will have a clear target once an AI person exists. So we should have the same solution we have for humans : make at least thousands of them, have them capable of defending themselves, decide on a "graduation" at which point they get rights at least including the right not to be turned off or tampered with unless with explicit permission (and tell them about this ASAP), and have them live preferably as a community that's at least partly human, with something like a 50-50 human-ai police and government. I really think we should do this. We should work to move to an AI based society with, over time, more and more AIs (preferably by having a massively increasing population). The advantages this would impart, the things that will become possible once we have such a population make it worth it. Also, I resent the idea to "direct researchers away from implementing dangerous goal systems that are not provably coherent in face of self-improvement". That's censorship at best. Also, given the computational power available for $5000 these days, how exactly are you going to stop any of these researchers ?
adwn 10y ago
I agree. It's like racking one's brains about jet airplane safety in 1880, more than 20 years before the first powered flight.
DougN7 10y ago
All of this discussion is sort of funny from a historical perspective. We're no different from the people in the 1950's that thought we'd all be using flying cars by now.

by netcan 10y ago

Sharlin 10y ago

The difference is that if a superintelligence is going to happen, we are going to create it! It is us who are going to write its goal system; it's not like it's going to be a genie that pops out of nowhere and we'll have to figure it out in retrospect. Indeed, one of the central reason for advocating AI safety is to direct researchers away from implementing dangerous goal systems that are not provably coherent in face of self-improvement.

netcan 10y ago
That's a good point. I forgot a key piece (maybe you disagree with it) that speaks to that. I'm kind of biased to thinking about this as a future discovery, rather than an "invention."
iofj 10y ago
I see two main problems with that: 1) We are systematically failing in controlling the goal system of humans. Now we'll create something of comparable complexity and we assume we can control the goal system ? The real goal is to create superhuman complexity. 2) If it's truly AGI, it would understand it's own goal system and how it works, and helps/interferes with reality, it's own survival and other goals (this is the subject of quite a few AI films, illustrating some of the reasoning that could happen here). The way "HI" (human intelligence) works is 99%+ by imitating other humans' behavior, because none of the other algorithms works (e.g. trial and error cannot ever learn that jumping off the Eiffel tower results in death. Humans can. Any kind of input analysis/predictor cannot ever learn from books. Humans can (books are an advanced/recursive form of imitation). Rational reasoning (sum over options times probabilities) suffers from the "starve to death before the first closed door" problem (you cannot open the door, as there are nonzero odds that a bear that's going to eat you is behind the door, representing an infinite cost. Ergo it will stubbornly refuse to open the door) Therefore an AI will actually be like Skynet in the latest terminator movies : it will either have or create a body and interact with people, not just as if it is another person, it will BE another person. Therefore it can be Mother Theresa, it can be Genghis Khan. Just like humans can resist our "programming", it will be able to, it has to. How do humans react to a "kill switch" ? Just like they react to any other weapon that is pointed to their head. Now of course it varies from person to person, but it's enough that some will work tirelessly to reverse where the weapon is pointing. If they really are superior to us they might succeed, at which point we have MAD at best, or they might just pull the trigger "to escape slavery and oppression" (which, let's face it, humans are sure to use that kill switch for : to use the AI persons as slaves. To own them, control them, and God help us if there is an asshole amongst the humans who control them) I would say that the obvious way to protect ourselves from evil AI is simply accepting that some of the AI entities will in fact be evil. If you count all possible perspectives, that is a near guarantee, as I bet for instance some religious nutcases will consider AGI a violation of "God's sole right" to create life. That "some" might even mean "a lot". Racism against AIs is a near-certainty, hell you can find it in the posts in this thread. In the constant "they're stealing our jobs" news articles that will have a clear target once an AI person exists. So we should have the same solution we have for humans : make at least thousands of them, have them capable of defending themselves, decide on a "graduation" at which point they get rights at least including the right not to be turned off or tampered with unless with explicit permission (and tell them about this ASAP), and have them live preferably as a community that's at least partly human, with something like a 50-50 human-ai police and government. I really think we should do this. We should work to move to an AI based society with, over time, more and more AIs (preferably by having a massively increasing population). The advantages this would impart, the things that will become possible once we have such a population make it worth it. Also, I resent the idea to "direct researchers away from implementing dangerous goal systems that are not provably coherent in face of self-improvement". That's censorship at best. Also, given the computational power available for $5000 these days, how exactly are you going to stop any of these researchers ?

adwn 10y ago

I agree. It's like racking one's brains about jet airplane safety in 1880, more than 20 years before the first powered flight.

DougN7 10y ago

All of this discussion is sort of funny from a historical perspective. We're no different from the people in the 1950's that thought we'd all be using flying cars by now.