5 ms·

The British are so strange. This kind of abuse of power would never be contemplated by American authorities.

fredley 10y ago
As a Brit who finds this sort of thing completely scary/abhorrent, I often wonder what it is about our culture that makes this so. I think a big part of it is the class-system, which has its roots in feudal structures from millennia past, and is still very much alive and well today. We all grow up to develop an innate sense of class (I look up to him, I look down on him etc.), and for the majority of people, they do trust the upper classes. The royal family has approval ratings through the roof, we have an Etonian PM and largely Etonian cabinet. We just don't have the same distrust that most countries seem to have. On the ground, this comes across as "well it's probably for the best, they know what they're doing", when trying to discuss matters like these. Also, I'm assuming there's an injunction out about this - can't find it reported anywhere in the UK press.
- alinajaf 10y ago
  As a fellow Brit, I find your ability to appreciate sarcasm lacking :)
- sievebrain 10y ago
  The UK has never had to deal with a truly oppressive government, at least not within anything like living memory. There's also the problem that nobody outside of the software engineering community really understands what the tech can do, or what GCHQ is capable of. My mother's primary comment on the whole thing was, "well we're much too boring to spy on" and that's a sentiment you see a lot. It reflects a misunderstanding of how cheap it is to create robotic law enforcement on top of the 5-eyes infrastructure.
  - JupiterMoon 10y ago
    > "well we're much too boring to spy on" Have you asked her why her government feels that it is necessary to spy on her if she is so boring?
    - newjersey 10y ago
      I think the narrative is that the government doesn't spy on her. They also would probably say that they take in the fire hose and only access the communications of the bad guys™
    - sievebrain 10y ago
      The Snowden story was vast and limited to the Guardian. In the UK the other media outlets didn't cover it at all, or actively attempted to undermine the reporting (e.g. with stories planted by the British government that were carefully worded to sound like they were from Snowden even if they weren't). The vast majority of people have not read any of the Snowden leaks and have no idea what they contained beyond "the government spies a lot". So the concept that they might be targeted themselves is just unimaginable to them.
      - JupiterMoon 10y ago
        Tell them then!
  - _9MOTHER9HORSE 10y ago
    > There's also the problem that nobody outside of the software engineering community really understands what the tech can do (...) I think that's the main problem. The IPB is all about allowing GCHQ and other government agencies to collect all the data they want, but we shouldn't be worried because there will be "safeguards" against the data being accessed arbitrarily. Those of us who are more technically minded realize that's a false distinction, but most don't.
  - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
    In fact all non-establishment groups - CND, anti-nuclear power protesters, anti-globalisation protesters, trade unions, animal rights activists, UK's own Occupy movement, anarchists, even worthy intellectual left-leaning blogs, and so on - were and are routinely infiltrated and manipulated. There's nominal press freedom, in that it's possible to call politicians rude names. But if your movement or leaders become powerful enough to have a hope of influencing policy and to challenge establishment cash flows and power relationships, expect some blow back.
    - samscully 10y ago
      Fortunately the non-establishment groups sometimes infiltrate and manipulate the establishment too [1]. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/17/jeremy-corbyn-vice-president-campaign-nuclear-disarmament http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/17/jeremy-corby...
      - dmix 10y ago
        Highly unlikely this happens very often at all. Counter-intelligence by the FBI (the primary intel agency dealling with domestic political organizations) is very thorough. It would take an extremely skilled person to get through their interviews, background checks, mandatory polygraph tests, etc. The FBI are the best trained people in the world at eliciting information from people unwillingly/unknowingly - which is enough of a barrier on it's own.
- lucozade 10y ago
  This was news about a year ago. I presume it's in Computer Weekly because the current bill is trying to close some gaps in the Wilson doctrine that were exposed at the time.
  - JupiterMoon 10y ago
    I thought that Wilson doctrine turned out to be nothing? GCHQ said they never respected it and always spied on MPs?
    - lucozade 10y ago
      That's correct. But MPs thought that it should mean something so they've amended the bill accordingly. That's what's going through Parliament now.
- 7952 10y ago
  > Also, I'm assuming there's an injunction out about this - can't find it reported anywhere in the UK press. Does this actually reveal anything new? It was previously known that GCHQ were logging email messages, and MPs use email. The story does not suggest that MPs email are exposed to greater scrutiny. The headline in every paper should be "Government fails to use email encryption". If the email is not encrypted it could be read by foreign governments, criminals, or the tabloid press. Implying that an email is less secure because it travels outside the UK is ridiculous. It was never secure in the first place!
  - JupiterMoon 10y ago
    Bear in mind that MP's correspondence with their constituents is being hoovered up as well. Yes @gov.uk to @gov.uk could be encrypted but constituent to MP email is in some ways more sensitive to GCHQ snooping. The solution remains political.
- monk_e_boy 10y ago
  > we have an Etonian PM and largely Etonian cabinet This is about money and class. It takes a lot of family money and a sense of extreme security (which comes from class) to tell your son - "Hey, you should become a politician." And for the kid... who knows what kind of mindset it required? Arrogance, winners mentality, thick skin... The kids I grew up with never had those ideas put into their heads. Hell, most of the kids I grew up with, the parents thought I was bonkers for wanting qualifications, one of the mums told me "In our family, we don't bother with exams and all that rubbish."
Fej 10y ago
I hope you're being sarcastic? NSA was caught snooping in a Supreme Court justice's data. (I think it was before he was on the Supreme Court, but nonetheless.) I find it unlikely that they're not intercepting American legislators' data, along with everyone else's.
- triplesec 10y ago
  FYI yes, this is (to a Brit) an obvious and classic case of obvious, deep, dry sarcasm.
  - draw_down 10y ago
    Whew. I was really hoping so.
lamby 10y ago
Brit here. Another interesting angle/reflection is that if this was happening in China then there would be a shitstorm here..
- andy_ppp 10y ago
  The Chinese directly sensor and tell you what you can and can't do. In "democratic" countries anything that changes the status quo or stands up to power puts you at risk of being targeted; maybe you'll end up in a relationship with a state official or maybe you'll be goaded by someone into breaking the law. Maybe you'll never be able to trust anyone ever again.
cm2187 10y ago
There are many things that are curious in the UK legal system. This week, a guy has been sentenced to 30y in jail for gun trafficking. I'm not condoning gun trafficking but in my book smuggling is much more venial offense than rape or murder, and smuggling items that are not even illegal in countries like the US. I am sure many murderers took a lot less than that. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36446462 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36446462
- hartpuff 10y ago
  > There are many things that are curious in the UK legal system. This week, a guy has been sentenced to 30y in jail for gun trafficking [...] items that are not even illegal in countries like the US If you tried to smuggle this: http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/0B22/production/_88505820_88505817.jpg http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/0B22/production/_... and this: http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/11A62/production/_88509227_88505906.jpg http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/11A62/productio... into the USA, you'd be facing about 630 years in jail, not 30.
  - cm2187 10y ago
    My point is that you wouldn't even need to smuggle it in the US, like you wouldn't even need to smuggle alcohol in the UK or pot in California.
    - jdietrich 10y ago
      We do things differently here. As a result, we have only had one mass shooting incident in the last 20 years. Our per-capita murder rate is about 1/4 that of the US. We had three fatal police shootings last year, one in 2014 and none in 2013. You might not like it, but we do. Our system of gun control is overwhelmingly popular. http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5 http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5 http://www.inquest.org.uk/statistics/fatal-police-shootings http://www.inquest.org.uk/statistics/fatal-police-shootings
      - 10y ago
mtgx 10y ago
I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not, but they most likely are: http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/04/nsa-wont-say-whether-it-spies-on-congress/comment-page-1/ http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/04/nsa-wont-say-whethe... And let's not forget this one: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/cia-admits-spying-senate-staffers http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/cia-admits-spyi... I'm not sure why people still give spy agencies the benefit of the doubt, when they are almost always caught with lying. Skepticism for what spy agencies have to say should be the default in everyone's minds, especially in policians' minds. Unfortunately, those very same politicians who are supposed to "oversee" the spy agencies are the ones cheering for them the most.

As a Brit who finds this sort of thing completely scary/abhorrent, I often wonder what it is about our culture that makes this so. I think a big part of it is the class-system, which has its roots in feudal structures from millennia past, and is still very much alive and well today. We all grow up to develop an innate sense of class (I look up to him, I look down on him etc.), and for the majority of people, they do trust the upper classes. The royal family has approval ratings through the roof, we have an Etonian PM and largely Etonian cabinet. We just don't have the same distrust that most countries seem to have. On the ground, this comes across as "well it's probably for the best, they know what they're doing", when trying to discuss matters like these. Also, I'm assuming there's an injunction out about this - can't find it reported anywhere in the UK press.

alinajaf 10y ago
As a fellow Brit, I find your ability to appreciate sarcasm lacking :)
sievebrain 10y ago
The UK has never had to deal with a truly oppressive government, at least not within anything like living memory. There's also the problem that nobody outside of the software engineering community really understands what the tech can do, or what GCHQ is capable of. My mother's primary comment on the whole thing was, "well we're much too boring to spy on" and that's a sentiment you see a lot. It reflects a misunderstanding of how cheap it is to create robotic law enforcement on top of the 5-eyes infrastructure.
- JupiterMoon 10y ago
  > "well we're much too boring to spy on" Have you asked her why her government feels that it is necessary to spy on her if she is so boring?
  - newjersey 10y ago
    I think the narrative is that the government doesn't spy on her. They also would probably say that they take in the fire hose and only access the communications of the bad guys™
  - sievebrain 10y ago
    The Snowden story was vast and limited to the Guardian. In the UK the other media outlets didn't cover it at all, or actively attempted to undermine the reporting (e.g. with stories planted by the British government that were carefully worded to sound like they were from Snowden even if they weren't). The vast majority of people have not read any of the Snowden leaks and have no idea what they contained beyond "the government spies a lot". So the concept that they might be targeted themselves is just unimaginable to them.
    - JupiterMoon 10y ago
      Tell them then!
- _9MOTHER9HORSE 10y ago
  > There's also the problem that nobody outside of the software engineering community really understands what the tech can do (...) I think that's the main problem. The IPB is all about allowing GCHQ and other government agencies to collect all the data they want, but we shouldn't be worried because there will be "safeguards" against the data being accessed arbitrarily. Those of us who are more technically minded realize that's a false distinction, but most don't.
- TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
  In fact all non-establishment groups - CND, anti-nuclear power protesters, anti-globalisation protesters, trade unions, animal rights activists, UK's own Occupy movement, anarchists, even worthy intellectual left-leaning blogs, and so on - were and are routinely infiltrated and manipulated. There's nominal press freedom, in that it's possible to call politicians rude names. But if your movement or leaders become powerful enough to have a hope of influencing policy and to challenge establishment cash flows and power relationships, expect some blow back.
  - samscully 10y ago
    Fortunately the non-establishment groups sometimes infiltrate and manipulate the establishment too [1]. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/17/jeremy-corbyn-vice-president-campaign-nuclear-disarmament http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/17/jeremy-corby...
    - dmix 10y ago
      Highly unlikely this happens very often at all. Counter-intelligence by the FBI (the primary intel agency dealling with domestic political organizations) is very thorough. It would take an extremely skilled person to get through their interviews, background checks, mandatory polygraph tests, etc. The FBI are the best trained people in the world at eliciting information from people unwillingly/unknowingly - which is enough of a barrier on it's own.
lucozade 10y ago
This was news about a year ago. I presume it's in Computer Weekly because the current bill is trying to close some gaps in the Wilson doctrine that were exposed at the time.
- JupiterMoon 10y ago
  I thought that Wilson doctrine turned out to be nothing? GCHQ said they never respected it and always spied on MPs?
  - lucozade 10y ago
    That's correct. But MPs thought that it should mean something so they've amended the bill accordingly. That's what's going through Parliament now.
7952 10y ago
> Also, I'm assuming there's an injunction out about this - can't find it reported anywhere in the UK press. Does this actually reveal anything new? It was previously known that GCHQ were logging email messages, and MPs use email. The story does not suggest that MPs email are exposed to greater scrutiny. The headline in every paper should be "Government fails to use email encryption". If the email is not encrypted it could be read by foreign governments, criminals, or the tabloid press. Implying that an email is less secure because it travels outside the UK is ridiculous. It was never secure in the first place!
- JupiterMoon 10y ago
  Bear in mind that MP's correspondence with their constituents is being hoovered up as well. Yes @gov.uk to @gov.uk could be encrypted but constituent to MP email is in some ways more sensitive to GCHQ snooping. The solution remains political.
monk_e_boy 10y ago
> we have an Etonian PM and largely Etonian cabinet This is about money and class. It takes a lot of family money and a sense of extreme security (which comes from class) to tell your son - "Hey, you should become a politician." And for the kid... who knows what kind of mindset it required? Arrogance, winners mentality, thick skin... The kids I grew up with never had those ideas put into their heads. Hell, most of the kids I grew up with, the parents thought I was bonkers for wanting qualifications, one of the mums told me "In our family, we don't bother with exams and all that rubbish."

Fej 10y ago

I hope you're being sarcastic? NSA was caught snooping in a Supreme Court justice's data. (I think it was before he was on the Supreme Court, but nonetheless.) I find it unlikely that they're not intercepting American legislators' data, along with everyone else's.

triplesec 10y ago
FYI yes, this is (to a Brit) an obvious and classic case of obvious, deep, dry sarcasm.
- draw_down 10y ago
  Whew. I was really hoping so.

lamby 10y ago

Brit here. Another interesting angle/reflection is that if this was happening in China then there would be a shitstorm here..

andy_ppp 10y ago
The Chinese directly sensor and tell you what you can and can't do. In "democratic" countries anything that changes the status quo or stands up to power puts you at risk of being targeted; maybe you'll end up in a relationship with a state official or maybe you'll be goaded by someone into breaking the law. Maybe you'll never be able to trust anyone ever again.

cm2187 10y ago

There are many things that are curious in the UK legal system. This week, a guy has been sentenced to 30y in jail for gun trafficking. I'm not condoning gun trafficking but in my book smuggling is much more venial offense than rape or murder, and smuggling items that are not even illegal in countries like the US. I am sure many murderers took a lot less than that. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36446462 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36446462

hartpuff 10y ago
> There are many things that are curious in the UK legal system. This week, a guy has been sentenced to 30y in jail for gun trafficking [...] items that are not even illegal in countries like the US If you tried to smuggle this: http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/0B22/production/_88505820_88505817.jpg http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/0B22/production/_... and this: http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/11A62/production/_88509227_88505906.jpg http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/11A62/productio... into the USA, you'd be facing about 630 years in jail, not 30.
- cm2187 10y ago
  My point is that you wouldn't even need to smuggle it in the US, like you wouldn't even need to smuggle alcohol in the UK or pot in California.
  - jdietrich 10y ago
    We do things differently here. As a result, we have only had one mass shooting incident in the last 20 years. Our per-capita murder rate is about 1/4 that of the US. We had three fatal police shootings last year, one in 2014 and none in 2013. You might not like it, but we do. Our system of gun control is overwhelmingly popular. http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5 http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5 http://www.inquest.org.uk/statistics/fatal-police-shootings http://www.inquest.org.uk/statistics/fatal-police-shootings
    - 10y ago

mtgx 10y ago

I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not, but they most likely are: http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/04/nsa-wont-say-whether-it-spies-on-congress/comment-page-1/ http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/04/nsa-wont-say-whethe... And let's not forget this one: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/cia-admits-spying-senate-staffers http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/cia-admits-spyi... I'm not sure why people still give spy agencies the benefit of the doubt, when they are almost always caught with lying. Skepticism for what spy agencies have to say should be the default in everyone's minds, especially in policians' minds. Unfortunately, those very same politicians who are supposed to "oversee" the spy agencies are the ones cheering for them the most.