5 ms·

Muhammad Ali is something we won't allow public figures to be anymore. Being outspoken and standing up for his beliefs, against all repercussions, were his his

by walru 10y ago

Muhammad Ali is something we won't allow public figures to be anymore. Being outspoken and standing up for his beliefs, against all repercussions, were his his greatest feat(s). I hope, over all else, his contributions to the human spirit reign over the rest of us. We need another (dozen) Cassius Clays.

sametmax 10y ago
Nobody allowed him to be this at the time either. It was not easier in any way. He just had the gut to do it. In France we had some old celebrity known for their very funny yet inapropriate one man show. Everybody said that he would not be able to do the same today. Well, all his friends responded, at the time neither. He got sued. Threaten. Physically and financially attacked. Disruption is always hard. And eventually others benefit more from it than you do.
- walru 10y ago
  You're correct. That's what I ultimately meant. His words were met, in the media, with challenge. Having his words even echoed was a feat in and of itself. You or I could not replicate his feat as we don't have the stage. People hinged on his every word because of his prowess in a field people could understand. Guys like LeBron James and Michael Phelps are the only folks who could garner the same level of respect in the here and now, but the field has changed, there's too much money at risk... Case and point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l35nC0jVNuk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l35nC0jVNuk
  - stan_rogers 10y ago
    People don't hinge on words (although their lives may); they hang on them. The idiom is "case in point", meaning "here is an example in furtherance of my argument." Yes, that may seem like nitpicking, but whether it's fair and logical or not, people will at least partially base their assessment of your message (or argument, or what have you) on the language you use to convey it.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - lifeisstillgood 10y ago
      And that is a lesson the eloquent, poetic Ali teaches us: No Vietcong ever called me nigger.
- draven 10y ago
  > In France we had some old celebrity known for their very funny yet inapropriate one man show. Who would that be ? I immediately thought about Desproges.
  - sametmax 10y ago
    Desproges indeed. Coluche too, and the whole Hara kiri team.
mevile 10y ago
> Muhammad Ali is something we won't allow public figures to be anymore. Being outspoken and standing up for his beliefs, against all repercussions, were his his greatest feat(s). What? You think current public figures are being prevented from being out spoken? Have you seen 50cent's twitter? Have you seen Donald Trump's? Lots of people are being out spoken, maybe more than I personally like, but whatever floats their boat.
- GauntletWizard 10y ago
  There's a big difference between Trump's blowhard populism and Muhammad Ali's firm, unpopular beliefs. Trump says things with no filter, with utter disregard for their meaning, consequence, or congruence with the last thing he said. I respect him for having the guts to be stream of consciousness and throwing out each thought, but he's not, in any of his campaign, stating policy, but just this thought process. Muhammad Ali had much to say. He was an outspoken civil rights supporter, anti draft activist, and convert to Islam, and a true believer in all those thoughts even when the majority of the country, even his fans, were against his positions. Hell, I'm against two of the three of those, and I still respect him enormously. He had a well spoken, eloquent, and coherent speaking style. He made you understand what his precepts were, how they shaped his philosophy, and he came to conclusions that you could respect. He wasn't simply outspoken, he was a good orator and a philosopher. There's a great interview with him in The Kandy-Kolored Tangerine-Flake Streamline Baby. Tom Wolfe is not his intended audience, but is utterly enthralled. He comes across as genuine, progressive (in a meaning of that word that is positive), and concerned with his fellow man (if intending to be insular in parts of his philosophy.) He's no saint, but one of the most genuine people in the stardom limelight.
  - chillacy 10y ago
    On being drafted for Vietnam: > My conscience won't let me go shoot my brother, or some darker people, or some poor hungry people in the mud for big powerful America. And shoot them for what? They never called me nigger, they never lynched me, they didn't put no dogs on me, they didn't rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my mother and father... Shoot them for what? How can I shoot them poor people? Just take me to jail.
fractallyte 10y ago
He wasn't just outspoken, he was eloquent. His command of wit and humor was as extraordinary as his physical skills. That's a pretty rare combination!
- walru 10y ago
  In spades. Being eloquent, holding court, was his greatest skill.
slg 10y ago
Ali wasn't "allowed" anything. He lost his livelihood for roughly a third of his athletic prime for standing up for his beliefs. He faced constant racism and bigotry. He was viewed as a bad guy by most of the country for much of his early career. Many people even refused to call him Muhammad Ali including other African American boxers. He persevered and became popular through shear will, determination, charisma, and talent, not because anyone allowed him to be that way.
- elcapitan 10y ago
  I think he's correct in the choice of the word "allowed" - yes, he had to fight for his beliefs, very hard fights, but he lived in a society that still valued individual struggle and determination, and that in the end rewarded it with success. Otherwise he couldn't have achieved what he has achieved. It's at least debatable if in today's softer world somebody who gets out and tells everybody that he's the greatest would still be "allowed" to earn reputation that way. I would argue that competing for victimhood status has become the prevalent approved strategy rather than fighting for your cause.
  - k-mcgrady 10y ago
    >> "It's at least debatable if in today's softer world somebody who gets out and tells everybody that he's the greatest would still be "allowed" to earn reputation that way." I don't think it's debatable at all. Just look at Mayweather or Conor McGregor. Both spend most of their time telling everyone how great they are and people are fine with that, as long as, like Ali, they back it up with results.
    - elcapitan 10y ago
      That wasn't exclusively about the sports part, in sports you can pretty much do anything. I meant "everything else".
  - n72 10y ago
    "somebody who gets out and tells everybody that he's the greatest would still be "allowed" to earn reputation that way" Golden age fallacy? Off the top of my head, here are few people who fit that description in various ways and who seem to be doing quite well, despite today's "softer world": Donald Trump, Kanye West, Peter Thiel Also, softer world? He faced constant death threats. Also: "Almost as quickly as Ali had arrived, his World Boxing Association heavyweight title was gone, revoked after he claimed conscientious objector status in refusing the draft. He also was stripped of his passport and all of his boxing licenses. He faced a five-year prison term after losing an initial court battle defending his objection to serving in a war that he called "despicable and unjust." Ali lost the chance at tens of millions of dollars in endorsements while appealing his case to the U.S. Supreme Court."
mahmud 10y ago
> We need another (dozen) Cassius Clays. And yet you call him by a name he himself changed and hated.
- walru 10y ago
  We are not garnered respect, within birth, but the parents who choose to bring us into this life are.
  - n72 10y ago
    What is that even supposed to mean?
- evincarofautumn 10y ago
  If you want to grow pickles, it’s right to ask for cucumber seeds, even though a cucumber is not a pickle.
  - icc97 10y ago
    There's a mighty large Ali sized difference between pickles vs cucumbers and slave name vs ancestor name.
    - evincarofautumn 10y ago
      What I mean is that the only known way to produce a Muhammad Ali is to start with a Cassius Clay, even though there is an important distinction between them.
force_reboot 10y ago
Can you imagine the repercussions today for a sportsman or woman who said something like[0]: "no intelligent white person watching this show, or no intelligent white man in his or her right white mind, want black boys and black girls marrying their white sons and daughters, and in return introducing their grandchildren as half brown, kinky haired black people" "It ain’t sad because I want my child to look like me, every intelligent person wants their child to look like them, I’m sad because I want to blot out my race and lose my identity? Chinese love Chinese they love the little slanty eye, pretty brown skin babies. Pakistani love their culture, Jewish people love their culture, a lot of catholic wanna be with Catholics and want the religion to stay the same… who would want to spot up yourself and kill your race? You’re a hater of your people if you don’t want to stay who you are. You ashamed of what god made you? You think he made a mistake when he made you?" [0] From a 1971 interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1Y693cSF7E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1Y693cSF7E

by walru 10y ago

sametmax 10y ago

Nobody allowed him to be this at the time either. It was not easier in any way. He just had the gut to do it. In France we had some old celebrity known for their very funny yet inapropriate one man show. Everybody said that he would not be able to do the same today. Well, all his friends responded, at the time neither. He got sued. Threaten. Physically and financially attacked. Disruption is always hard. And eventually others benefit more from it than you do.

walru 10y ago
You're correct. That's what I ultimately meant. His words were met, in the media, with challenge. Having his words even echoed was a feat in and of itself. You or I could not replicate his feat as we don't have the stage. People hinged on his every word because of his prowess in a field people could understand. Guys like LeBron James and Michael Phelps are the only folks who could garner the same level of respect in the here and now, but the field has changed, there's too much money at risk... Case and point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l35nC0jVNuk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l35nC0jVNuk
- stan_rogers 10y ago
  People don't hinge on words (although their lives may); they hang on them. The idiom is "case in point", meaning "here is an example in furtherance of my argument." Yes, that may seem like nitpicking, but whether it's fair and logical or not, people will at least partially base their assessment of your message (or argument, or what have you) on the language you use to convey it.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - lifeisstillgood 10y ago
    And that is a lesson the eloquent, poetic Ali teaches us: No Vietcong ever called me nigger.
draven 10y ago
> In France we had some old celebrity known for their very funny yet inapropriate one man show. Who would that be ? I immediately thought about Desproges.
- sametmax 10y ago
  Desproges indeed. Coluche too, and the whole Hara kiri team.

mevile 10y ago

> Muhammad Ali is something we won't allow public figures to be anymore. Being outspoken and standing up for his beliefs, against all repercussions, were his his greatest feat(s). What? You think current public figures are being prevented from being out spoken? Have you seen 50cent's twitter? Have you seen Donald Trump's? Lots of people are being out spoken, maybe more than I personally like, but whatever floats their boat.

GauntletWizard 10y ago
There's a big difference between Trump's blowhard populism and Muhammad Ali's firm, unpopular beliefs. Trump says things with no filter, with utter disregard for their meaning, consequence, or congruence with the last thing he said. I respect him for having the guts to be stream of consciousness and throwing out each thought, but he's not, in any of his campaign, stating policy, but just this thought process. Muhammad Ali had much to say. He was an outspoken civil rights supporter, anti draft activist, and convert to Islam, and a true believer in all those thoughts even when the majority of the country, even his fans, were against his positions. Hell, I'm against two of the three of those, and I still respect him enormously. He had a well spoken, eloquent, and coherent speaking style. He made you understand what his precepts were, how they shaped his philosophy, and he came to conclusions that you could respect. He wasn't simply outspoken, he was a good orator and a philosopher. There's a great interview with him in The Kandy-Kolored Tangerine-Flake Streamline Baby. Tom Wolfe is not his intended audience, but is utterly enthralled. He comes across as genuine, progressive (in a meaning of that word that is positive), and concerned with his fellow man (if intending to be insular in parts of his philosophy.) He's no saint, but one of the most genuine people in the stardom limelight.
- chillacy 10y ago
  On being drafted for Vietnam: > My conscience won't let me go shoot my brother, or some darker people, or some poor hungry people in the mud for big powerful America. And shoot them for what? They never called me nigger, they never lynched me, they didn't put no dogs on me, they didn't rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my mother and father... Shoot them for what? How can I shoot them poor people? Just take me to jail.

fractallyte 10y ago

He wasn't just outspoken, he was eloquent. His command of wit and humor was as extraordinary as his physical skills. That's a pretty rare combination!

walru 10y ago
In spades. Being eloquent, holding court, was his greatest skill.

slg 10y ago

Ali wasn't "allowed" anything. He lost his livelihood for roughly a third of his athletic prime for standing up for his beliefs. He faced constant racism and bigotry. He was viewed as a bad guy by most of the country for much of his early career. Many people even refused to call him Muhammad Ali including other African American boxers. He persevered and became popular through shear will, determination, charisma, and talent, not because anyone allowed him to be that way.

elcapitan 10y ago
I think he's correct in the choice of the word "allowed" - yes, he had to fight for his beliefs, very hard fights, but he lived in a society that still valued individual struggle and determination, and that in the end rewarded it with success. Otherwise he couldn't have achieved what he has achieved. It's at least debatable if in today's softer world somebody who gets out and tells everybody that he's the greatest would still be "allowed" to earn reputation that way. I would argue that competing for victimhood status has become the prevalent approved strategy rather than fighting for your cause.
- k-mcgrady 10y ago
  >> "It's at least debatable if in today's softer world somebody who gets out and tells everybody that he's the greatest would still be "allowed" to earn reputation that way." I don't think it's debatable at all. Just look at Mayweather or Conor McGregor. Both spend most of their time telling everyone how great they are and people are fine with that, as long as, like Ali, they back it up with results.
  - elcapitan 10y ago
    That wasn't exclusively about the sports part, in sports you can pretty much do anything. I meant "everything else".
- n72 10y ago
  "somebody who gets out and tells everybody that he's the greatest would still be "allowed" to earn reputation that way" Golden age fallacy? Off the top of my head, here are few people who fit that description in various ways and who seem to be doing quite well, despite today's "softer world": Donald Trump, Kanye West, Peter Thiel Also, softer world? He faced constant death threats. Also: "Almost as quickly as Ali had arrived, his World Boxing Association heavyweight title was gone, revoked after he claimed conscientious objector status in refusing the draft. He also was stripped of his passport and all of his boxing licenses. He faced a five-year prison term after losing an initial court battle defending his objection to serving in a war that he called "despicable and unjust." Ali lost the chance at tens of millions of dollars in endorsements while appealing his case to the U.S. Supreme Court."

mahmud 10y ago

> We need another (dozen) Cassius Clays. And yet you call him by a name he himself changed and hated.

walru 10y ago
We are not garnered respect, within birth, but the parents who choose to bring us into this life are.
- n72 10y ago
  What is that even supposed to mean?
evincarofautumn 10y ago
If you want to grow pickles, it’s right to ask for cucumber seeds, even though a cucumber is not a pickle.
- icc97 10y ago
  There's a mighty large Ali sized difference between pickles vs cucumbers and slave name vs ancestor name.
  - evincarofautumn 10y ago
    What I mean is that the only known way to produce a Muhammad Ali is to start with a Cassius Clay, even though there is an important distinction between them.

force_reboot 10y ago

Can you imagine the repercussions today for a sportsman or woman who said something like[0]: "no intelligent white person watching this show, or no intelligent white man in his or her right white mind, want black boys and black girls marrying their white sons and daughters, and in return introducing their grandchildren as half brown, kinky haired black people" "It ain’t sad because I want my child to look like me, every intelligent person wants their child to look like them, I’m sad because I want to blot out my race and lose my identity? Chinese love Chinese they love the little slanty eye, pretty brown skin babies. Pakistani love their culture, Jewish people love their culture, a lot of catholic wanna be with Catholics and want the religion to stay the same… who would want to spot up yourself and kill your race? You’re a hater of your people if you don’t want to stay who you are. You ashamed of what god made you? You think he made a mistake when he made you?" [0] From a 1971 interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1Y693cSF7E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1Y693cSF7E