3 ms·

> The physical check itself – the piece of paper – has to be genuine, This is wrong, right? There is no such thing as a genuine check outside of conventions

> The physical check itself – the piece of paper – has to be genuine, This is wrong, right? There is no such thing as a genuine check outside of conventions for repudiation(out of order check numbers, not on my check paper). Whether it came from the checkbook my bank sent, or out of my printer, it is just as good. Legally, writing it on a napkin would probably work, but draw lots of scrutiny becuase it looks suspicious and can't be processed automatically.

dalerus 10y ago
That's correct. I worked at a bank for years and once a month I would get a check written from the same older gentleman on half a sheet of yellow legal pad. He apparently thought buy checks were a scam and he saw no reason to buy them when he could just use a sheet of paper.
- tamana 10y ago
  And he was exactly right! How do you know who wrote the check? You should only see the recipient.
  - cmdrfred 10y ago
    I presume the account number would inform you of this? Perhaps he had to call and confirm?
  - dalerus 10y ago
    The first couple of times I called and confirmed that he did write the check. Also the banking systems keep copies of signatures so I checked the signatures as well. Once it became a regular thing, we made a note on his account.
- burfog 10y ago
  Consider yourself lucky. I've heard of checks being written on the side of a cow. I expect this works out better for people who get physical checks returned to them. Shredding the cow is a no-no.
  - moron4hire 10y ago
    Depends on your views regarding barbecue.
- Zaephyr 10y ago
  Also, business used to have have counter checks available for customers (if they took checks). Basically a standard blank form, sort of like what banks have for withdrawals but were less formal. Sometimes mentioned in 70's TV shows/movies like Columbo.
ajdlinux 10y ago
I don't know about the legal effect of this, and I don't know about the situation in the US, but here in Australia the requirement that you must use a cheque form supplied by the bank is generally listed in the account's terms and conditions which are contractually binding.
zhte415 10y ago
Correct. But it depends. A lot on jurisdiction and local law. Most banking systems I've worked with have a field 'cheque book issued' which is sometimes linked to a rule 'cheques outstanding'. If the 'cheque book issued' field is false, no kind of cheque will be cleared. I'm not familiar with the US, but if an account was named a 'chequeing accound' would imply this is always set to true. Various red flags also exist, as a cheque book has cheques numbered, so the same number being used would result in payment denied. In the UK, payee blank cheques were disallowed in the 1990s, etc. A long list of red flags, because banks hate cheques. The industry term is 'Manually Initiated Fund Transfer' which means, at some part of the transaction (any transaction - could be updating an interest rate, or an authorised signer), a manual step was involved. This creates huge risk of fraud, banks dislike fraud, and legal punishments are large, especially for the bank which has a procedure with holes to let it happen. Cheques are manual, the responsibility is on the bank. An online initiated transfer, the responsibility is on the customer to ensure their password is safe (and the bank to also do automated checks - unusual IPs, 2nd factor confirmation, but much easier to automate). So a bank refusing to authorise payment from a cheque written on a napkin can be expected, as long as the process is documented as fraud control. Printing on company-headed document would probably work - the first small payment would raise many red flags, but if that cleared, future similar payments would be OK'd. A single cheque to empty an account? Some kind of 2nd factor authentication would be employed by any sane bank, such as an old-fashioned call to the number the account is registered with.
astrodust 10y ago
The American definition of a "check" is extremely simplistic and notably does not define a list of things that exclude it from being valid. It can say "sample" all over it or "not valid" and it's technically still a legal check. Once in a while those "sample" checks issued by junk mailers actually work because the bank fails to check these things: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Playing-With-Money-How-a-95-093-35-junk-mail-2588766.php http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Playing-With-Money-How-a-...
derefr 10y ago
> but draw lots of scrutiny Now this has got me wondering, how far off do you have to be from a standard bank-formatted check before one of those "deposit with your phone" banking apps will reject the check? I do bet that at the very least, someone with good penmanship could manage to "draw" a check that one of those apps would deposit. But could you go further?

dalerus 10y ago

That's correct. I worked at a bank for years and once a month I would get a check written from the same older gentleman on half a sheet of yellow legal pad. He apparently thought buy checks were a scam and he saw no reason to buy them when he could just use a sheet of paper.

tamana 10y ago
And he was exactly right! How do you know who wrote the check? You should only see the recipient.
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  I presume the account number would inform you of this? Perhaps he had to call and confirm?
- dalerus 10y ago
  The first couple of times I called and confirmed that he did write the check. Also the banking systems keep copies of signatures so I checked the signatures as well. Once it became a regular thing, we made a note on his account.
burfog 10y ago
Consider yourself lucky. I've heard of checks being written on the side of a cow. I expect this works out better for people who get physical checks returned to them. Shredding the cow is a no-no.
- moron4hire 10y ago
  Depends on your views regarding barbecue.
Zaephyr 10y ago
Also, business used to have have counter checks available for customers (if they took checks). Basically a standard blank form, sort of like what banks have for withdrawals but were less formal. Sometimes mentioned in 70's TV shows/movies like Columbo.

ajdlinux 10y ago

I don't know about the legal effect of this, and I don't know about the situation in the US, but here in Australia the requirement that you must use a cheque form supplied by the bank is generally listed in the account's terms and conditions which are contractually binding.

zhte415 10y ago

Correct. But it depends. A lot on jurisdiction and local law. Most banking systems I've worked with have a field 'cheque book issued' which is sometimes linked to a rule 'cheques outstanding'. If the 'cheque book issued' field is false, no kind of cheque will be cleared. I'm not familiar with the US, but if an account was named a 'chequeing accound' would imply this is always set to true. Various red flags also exist, as a cheque book has cheques numbered, so the same number being used would result in payment denied. In the UK, payee blank cheques were disallowed in the 1990s, etc. A long list of red flags, because banks hate cheques. The industry term is 'Manually Initiated Fund Transfer' which means, at some part of the transaction (any transaction - could be updating an interest rate, or an authorised signer), a manual step was involved. This creates huge risk of fraud, banks dislike fraud, and legal punishments are large, especially for the bank which has a procedure with holes to let it happen. Cheques are manual, the responsibility is on the bank. An online initiated transfer, the responsibility is on the customer to ensure their password is safe (and the bank to also do automated checks - unusual IPs, 2nd factor confirmation, but much easier to automate). So a bank refusing to authorise payment from a cheque written on a napkin can be expected, as long as the process is documented as fraud control. Printing on company-headed document would probably work - the first small payment would raise many red flags, but if that cleared, future similar payments would be OK'd. A single cheque to empty an account? Some kind of 2nd factor authentication would be employed by any sane bank, such as an old-fashioned call to the number the account is registered with.

astrodust 10y ago

The American definition of a "check" is extremely simplistic and notably does not define a list of things that exclude it from being valid. It can say "sample" all over it or "not valid" and it's technically still a legal check. Once in a while those "sample" checks issued by junk mailers actually work because the bank fails to check these things: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Playing-With-Money-How-a-95-093-35-junk-mail-2588766.php http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Playing-With-Money-How-a-...

derefr 10y ago

> but draw lots of scrutiny Now this has got me wondering, how far off do you have to be from a standard bank-formatted check before one of those "deposit with your phone" banking apps will reject the check? I do bet that at the very least, someone with good penmanship could manage to "draw" a check that one of those apps would deposit. But could you go further?