6 ms·

They are adding jobs. However, we now having more people making less money for essentially the same job. It's a win for consumers, because it's more convenien

They are adding jobs. However, we now having more people making less money for essentially the same job. It's a win for consumers, because it's more convenient and in some cases, cheaper. But it's a lose for the people that actually made a decent living driving who now are competing with college kids that are doing the same thing in their spare time without having any of the same startup costs. Uber and Lyft removed the barrier to entry by breaking the law and the monopoly the Taxi unions had over the entire industry. But the result is lower wages and benefits.

mgraczyk 10y ago
Why should the incumbents have security in their position, when as you pointed out college kids can do the same work at lower cost? It is unfair to the unemployed and to consumers to provide special protection to incumbents based solely on their position and earlier entry to the market. That is a classic case of rent seeking with governmental protection. Good for Uber and Lyft for breaking the law and pushing us out of that local minima. Sometimes you have to harm a few privileged rent seekers to remove coercive monopolies and reduce regulatory capture.
- Qworg 10y ago
  It isn't just regulatory capture though - permits for taxis carry all sorts of protections for consumers. Those protections are guaranteed by law and I see no replacement for those protections from either Uber or Lyft. We used to have the free for all we're building towards and we regulated to stop it. Why won't history repeat itself?
  - bsbechtel 10y ago
    Protections for consumers that apparently comes at a much higher price point, which some consumers may not wish to pay. How is that protection for them?
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      As a consumer, you don't get to opt out of regulation "because you want to". You then create a race to the bottom, negatively affecting your fellow citizens. You don't want to pay for safe airlines? Non-rancid meat? Agriculture runoff regulation? Too bad.
      - twoodfin 10y ago
        Your comment isn't an argument that the level of regulation (and subsequent regulatory capture) for the taxi industry in most U.S. cities is appropriate and on the whole beneficial. It's a much less controversial argument that some regulation is for the common good. Sure. Isn't it obvious that some level of regulation is too costly for consumers to justify the benefits they receive? To me, that's the charitable reading of bsbechtel's comment.
        toomuchtodo 10y ago
        > Isn't it obvious that some level of regulation is too costly for consumers to justify the benefits they receive? To me, that's the charitable reading of bsbechtel's comment. I don't dispute this. If you want the regulation changed, vote on it. If you simply ignore it because you think it doesn't apply to you, I hope to see you go out of business.
      - JWLong 10y ago
        ftfy > As a consumer, in $my_economic_model, you don't get to opt out of regulation "because you want to".
        toomuchtodo 10y ago
        Just calling it how it is in countries with a real working government.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
  - petra 10y ago
    It isn't clear that the permits systems provided better protection than UBER's system, and there's at least theoretical reasons to think UBER's data rich system could become better than permits, especially if combined with stuff like background checks,etc.
    - Qworg 10y ago
      Agreed, but Uber has no reason to support background checks, etc. Any move towards regulation would make their business model fall apart.
    - SolaceQuantum 10y ago
      Does Uber support wheelchairs and disability accessibility?
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    As a consumer, I strongly prefer the protections I get from Uber/Lyft/Olacab to those that I get from the regulated taxis. For instance, some months back I got in an Ola to Delhi Airport. The guy took some crazy long route while pretending he didn't understand my broken Hindi (with very clear street names and pointed directions), and very nearly caused me to miss my flight. I took out the app and made a complaint while waiting for my flight. When I landed I got an email about my money being refunded. How effective do you think it'll be to try and make use of my government provided consumer protections? http://www.delhi.gov.in/wps/wcm/connect/doit_transport/Transport/Home/Contact+Us http://www.delhi.gov.in/wps/wcm/connect/doit_transport/Trans... Another wonderful thing we are getting from the regulators - protection against drivers of the wrong ethnic group. Imagine how terrible it would be to be driven by a Bihari? http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-shiv-sena-defends-marathi-mandatory-clause-for-auto-drivers-2126586 http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-shiv-sena-defends-marat... (Similarly, in the US, try to flag a taxi while black. Uber solved this problem, have the US regulators?) We stopped the "free for all" because the incumbent taxi monopoly captured the regulatory bodies. That's all. Rather than ideologically defending all regulation, why not focus on having good regulation?
    - Qworg 10y ago
      First, I'm speaking of the US. I have no experience in India. I'm certainly not defending all regulation, but unregulated taxis caused all sorts of problems in the past, which is why we regulated them. Background checks, improved guarantees of vehicle safety, minimum competency in English, etc. Why not have both? Break the monopoly, but create realistic and working regulations for all players.
      - stormbrew 10y ago
        Something rather big has changed since the regulations were put into place (sometimes fairly recently, my city didn't cap taxi plates until the mid-90s). It used to be most taxis were gotten by hailing, and some by phoning. Neither allowed you to verify anything about the cab that eventually picked you up. Apps change this greatly, and now when I ask for an Uber I have reason more reason to trust that the person picking me up is an Uber driver, and has met the standards they established and I can verify in some way, than I ever did that the cabbie who picked me up is the one I called, or that they're a legally sanctioned taxi if I hailed it. This change is glossed over in this discussion a lot, but it is the single most important distinction between the old and new systems, and it definitely should reduce the barrier to entry when it comes to regulatory reasons. I'm absolutely in favour of maintaining extremely strict controls over vehicles that can pick people up off the street with no prior arrangement. Loosening that is a bad idea, and it's not really at issue in the current debate.
force_reboot 10y ago
Not sure why you're getting downvotes, this is completely accurate (except that the competitors aren't necessarily college kids, as a demographic they are closer to taxi drivers). But I would add that on net this is a good thing, and the beneficiaries are not just consumers, but the new drivers. The logic of the free market is fairly simple and intuitive. One reason people shy away from it is that they are subconsciously afraid of organized labor. The left have drummed it into people's heads that these people mean business, and if they beat you to a pulp it will be your own fault for threatening their livelihood [0]. [0] e.g. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7L_cuQJ1pQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7L_cuQJ1pQ

mgraczyk 10y ago

Why should the incumbents have security in their position, when as you pointed out college kids can do the same work at lower cost? It is unfair to the unemployed and to consumers to provide special protection to incumbents based solely on their position and earlier entry to the market. That is a classic case of rent seeking with governmental protection. Good for Uber and Lyft for breaking the law and pushing us out of that local minima. Sometimes you have to harm a few privileged rent seekers to remove coercive monopolies and reduce regulatory capture.

Qworg 10y ago
It isn't just regulatory capture though - permits for taxis carry all sorts of protections for consumers. Those protections are guaranteed by law and I see no replacement for those protections from either Uber or Lyft. We used to have the free for all we're building towards and we regulated to stop it. Why won't history repeat itself?
- bsbechtel 10y ago
  Protections for consumers that apparently comes at a much higher price point, which some consumers may not wish to pay. How is that protection for them?
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    As a consumer, you don't get to opt out of regulation "because you want to". You then create a race to the bottom, negatively affecting your fellow citizens. You don't want to pay for safe airlines? Non-rancid meat? Agriculture runoff regulation? Too bad.
    - twoodfin 10y ago
      Your comment isn't an argument that the level of regulation (and subsequent regulatory capture) for the taxi industry in most U.S. cities is appropriate and on the whole beneficial. It's a much less controversial argument that some regulation is for the common good. Sure. Isn't it obvious that some level of regulation is too costly for consumers to justify the benefits they receive? To me, that's the charitable reading of bsbechtel's comment.
      - toomuchtodo 10y ago
        > Isn't it obvious that some level of regulation is too costly for consumers to justify the benefits they receive? To me, that's the charitable reading of bsbechtel's comment. I don't dispute this. If you want the regulation changed, vote on it. If you simply ignore it because you think it doesn't apply to you, I hope to see you go out of business.
    - JWLong 10y ago
      ftfy > As a consumer, in $my_economic_model, you don't get to opt out of regulation "because you want to".
      - toomuchtodo 10y ago
        Just calling it how it is in countries with a real working government.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
- petra 10y ago
  It isn't clear that the permits systems provided better protection than UBER's system, and there's at least theoretical reasons to think UBER's data rich system could become better than permits, especially if combined with stuff like background checks,etc.
  - Qworg 10y ago
    Agreed, but Uber has no reason to support background checks, etc. Any move towards regulation would make their business model fall apart.
  - SolaceQuantum 10y ago
    Does Uber support wheelchairs and disability accessibility?
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  As a consumer, I strongly prefer the protections I get from Uber/Lyft/Olacab to those that I get from the regulated taxis. For instance, some months back I got in an Ola to Delhi Airport. The guy took some crazy long route while pretending he didn't understand my broken Hindi (with very clear street names and pointed directions), and very nearly caused me to miss my flight. I took out the app and made a complaint while waiting for my flight. When I landed I got an email about my money being refunded. How effective do you think it'll be to try and make use of my government provided consumer protections? http://www.delhi.gov.in/wps/wcm/connect/doit_transport/Transport/Home/Contact+Us http://www.delhi.gov.in/wps/wcm/connect/doit_transport/Trans... Another wonderful thing we are getting from the regulators - protection against drivers of the wrong ethnic group. Imagine how terrible it would be to be driven by a Bihari? http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-shiv-sena-defends-marathi-mandatory-clause-for-auto-drivers-2126586 http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-shiv-sena-defends-marat... (Similarly, in the US, try to flag a taxi while black. Uber solved this problem, have the US regulators?) We stopped the "free for all" because the incumbent taxi monopoly captured the regulatory bodies. That's all. Rather than ideologically defending all regulation, why not focus on having good regulation?
  - Qworg 10y ago
    First, I'm speaking of the US. I have no experience in India. I'm certainly not defending all regulation, but unregulated taxis caused all sorts of problems in the past, which is why we regulated them. Background checks, improved guarantees of vehicle safety, minimum competency in English, etc. Why not have both? Break the monopoly, but create realistic and working regulations for all players.
    - stormbrew 10y ago
      Something rather big has changed since the regulations were put into place (sometimes fairly recently, my city didn't cap taxi plates until the mid-90s). It used to be most taxis were gotten by hailing, and some by phoning. Neither allowed you to verify anything about the cab that eventually picked you up. Apps change this greatly, and now when I ask for an Uber I have reason more reason to trust that the person picking me up is an Uber driver, and has met the standards they established and I can verify in some way, than I ever did that the cabbie who picked me up is the one I called, or that they're a legally sanctioned taxi if I hailed it. This change is glossed over in this discussion a lot, but it is the single most important distinction between the old and new systems, and it definitely should reduce the barrier to entry when it comes to regulatory reasons. I'm absolutely in favour of maintaining extremely strict controls over vehicles that can pick people up off the street with no prior arrangement. Loosening that is a bad idea, and it's not really at issue in the current debate.

force_reboot 10y ago

Not sure why you're getting downvotes, this is completely accurate (except that the competitors aren't necessarily college kids, as a demographic they are closer to taxi drivers). But I would add that on net this is a good thing, and the beneficiaries are not just consumers, but the new drivers. The logic of the free market is fairly simple and intuitive. One reason people shy away from it is that they are subconsciously afraid of organized labor. The left have drummed it into people's heads that these people mean business, and if they beat you to a pulp it will be your own fault for threatening their livelihood [0]. [0] e.g. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7L_cuQJ1pQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7L_cuQJ1pQ