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So something I'd like to get advice on is: what do you do negotiation-wise if actually salary is not the thing you care most about? Suppose you (for health reas

by pm215 10y ago

So something I'd like to get advice on is: what do you do negotiation-wise if actually salary is not the thing you care most about? Suppose you (for health reasons or just because you don't need the extra money and like the reduced stress) want or need to work less than the usual five-day week -- at what point do you bring up the "hey, how about a four-day week" question, when the typical employer is looking for a five-day-a-week full time employee? If you raise it early then it seems like they're just going to file your application in the bin, but bringing it up only at the end seems kind of awkwardly blindsiding them... (I can see how it would work negotiating this as an already-established employee where you're a known quantity to the employer and they'd rather not lose you altogether, but not how to get that kind of setup from the start with a new employer.)

eastbayjake 10y ago
It seems like the same principle is in play: demonstrate your value first, then talk about terms after they're sold on you and want to make an offer. I can't imagine any company that would flat-out refuse a talented candidate over a 4-day week request, but I think most would sideline you if it was brought up before you'd demonstrated the value you can add to their business. In fact, I'll bet many companies would view a 10% paycut for a 10% reduction in hours (4 days @ 9 hrs/day) as a no-brainer win to get a talented hire.
- zenlikethat 10y ago
  I don't think so. 4 day work week would be a deal breaker for most companies. If Joe gets hired in and never works Fridays pretty soon everyone else will want Fridays off too. Salary is irrelevant, it's human nature.
  - eastbayjake 10y ago
    I previously had a colleague reduce days in exchange for a pay cut, it was clearly messaged to us (a small startup) that there was a tradeoff happening, and the rest of us were happy to make more money working 5 days/week. I think the human nature part is wanting to be treated fairly -- it's unfair if you get paid the same and work less, but it feels fair if you make more money for working more.
iumtuip2001 10y ago
I think you need to bring a request like that to the table, early in the hiring process. And whether or not they "throw your resume in the bin" will depend on how you frame the question. - "Are you guys open to the idea of a lower salary, in favor of an extra day off? I'd love to work on my wood working, and spend time with my kids... Time is more valuable than money right now". v.s. - "I'll take that salary, and I want an extra day off every week."
- cerrelio 10y ago
  Better to phrase it as: "Are you open to the idea of a 4-day work week for me? How would that affect my overall compensation?" I think it's unwise to reveal your willingness to be paid less. Mostly because you should never reveal your willingness to be paid less. Never leave money on the table.
  - iumtuip2001 10y ago
    Agreed. That's a better way of saying it.
toyg 10y ago
Following the podcast argument, I'd say you bring it up when you're ok to talk numbers. At that point, ideally you've already "made them want you" enough, that losing one day could look like a price worth paying. You should probably be honest though, and talk about it upfront as soon as compensation negotiation starts, accepting (or even suggesting) they could lower their salary range in exchange. Or simply negotiate on extra holidays, so you can use extra days to actually get a 4-day week once or twice a month. If you're a super-hotshot ninjastar who wrote Rails and founded a Linux distribution that now runs the Japanese train system, then you could probably get both a spectacular salary and part-time hours, but realistically the two will not go together for most people. (Which, incidentally, is a typical problem for women with families and one of the reasons their salaries remain lower on average.)
bigmanwalter 10y ago
I've been meditating on finding part time work for a while now. It seems the only options are to become indispensable to an organization before you demand it, and then you can keep it until they replace you, or to become a work from home contractor. If you have a new child and are without a stay-at-home partner, you could possibly prolong the amount of time before being made redundant but that seems to be the only socially acceptable reason to want to work part time. Mothers have been complaining about the absurdity of this situation ever since they joined the workforce. The only way to find respectable part time work while staying within the system is to go after traditionally women only jobs like nursing.

by pm215 10y ago

eastbayjake 10y ago

It seems like the same principle is in play: demonstrate your value first, then talk about terms after they're sold on you and want to make an offer. I can't imagine any company that would flat-out refuse a talented candidate over a 4-day week request, but I think most would sideline you if it was brought up before you'd demonstrated the value you can add to their business. In fact, I'll bet many companies would view a 10% paycut for a 10% reduction in hours (4 days @ 9 hrs/day) as a no-brainer win to get a talented hire.

zenlikethat 10y ago
I don't think so. 4 day work week would be a deal breaker for most companies. If Joe gets hired in and never works Fridays pretty soon everyone else will want Fridays off too. Salary is irrelevant, it's human nature.
- eastbayjake 10y ago
  I previously had a colleague reduce days in exchange for a pay cut, it was clearly messaged to us (a small startup) that there was a tradeoff happening, and the rest of us were happy to make more money working 5 days/week. I think the human nature part is wanting to be treated fairly -- it's unfair if you get paid the same and work less, but it feels fair if you make more money for working more.

iumtuip2001 10y ago

I think you need to bring a request like that to the table, early in the hiring process. And whether or not they "throw your resume in the bin" will depend on how you frame the question. - "Are you guys open to the idea of a lower salary, in favor of an extra day off? I'd love to work on my wood working, and spend time with my kids... Time is more valuable than money right now". v.s. - "I'll take that salary, and I want an extra day off every week."

cerrelio 10y ago
Better to phrase it as: "Are you open to the idea of a 4-day work week for me? How would that affect my overall compensation?" I think it's unwise to reveal your willingness to be paid less. Mostly because you should never reveal your willingness to be paid less. Never leave money on the table.
- iumtuip2001 10y ago
  Agreed. That's a better way of saying it.

toyg 10y ago

Following the podcast argument, I'd say you bring it up when you're ok to talk numbers. At that point, ideally you've already "made them want you" enough, that losing one day could look like a price worth paying. You should probably be honest though, and talk about it upfront as soon as compensation negotiation starts, accepting (or even suggesting) they could lower their salary range in exchange. Or simply negotiate on extra holidays, so you can use extra days to actually get a 4-day week once or twice a month. If you're a super-hotshot ninjastar who wrote Rails and founded a Linux distribution that now runs the Japanese train system, then you could probably get both a spectacular salary and part-time hours, but realistically the two will not go together for most people. (Which, incidentally, is a typical problem for women with families and one of the reasons their salaries remain lower on average.)

bigmanwalter 10y ago

I've been meditating on finding part time work for a while now. It seems the only options are to become indispensable to an organization before you demand it, and then you can keep it until they replace you, or to become a work from home contractor. If you have a new child and are without a stay-at-home partner, you could possibly prolong the amount of time before being made redundant but that seems to be the only socially acceptable reason to want to work part time. Mothers have been complaining about the absurdity of this situation ever since they joined the workforce. The only way to find respectable part time work while staying within the system is to go after traditionally women only jobs like nursing.