6 ms·

It was always pretty simple for me personally, If you don't want to pay me what I want, you are free to hire someone else. I find the most important part is be

It was always pretty simple for me personally, If you don't want to pay me what I want, you are free to hire someone else. I find the most important part is being able to walk away, If you negotiate from a position of weakness or need you are behind already. If I am hiring I know what I can afford to pay, what I think the position is "worth" and what I want out of it and make an offer according. I like ideally to pay for work not for hours etc, if you give me what I want I don't care if I am paying you $3000 dollars and you worked a half hour and slept for a week out of town, I would consider that smart and efficient. I find its the person who is applying that has the power not the company and I think that's an important lesson for people who are applying to learn. If "they" are not willing to pay me what I want, that puts us on a bad start already.

JoblessWonder 10y ago
> I find its the person who is applying that has the power not the company I think you are assuming the person applying has some sort of safety net (a current job, savings, alternate income.) That is where the BATNA comes into play. Sure, if you are already making an acceptable amount of money to meet your needs, aren't overworked/over-stressed, and relatively satisfied then you are indeed in a position of power. If you need to get hired some place within 2 months and have been having trouble getting a job then you very well might not be in a position of power. Not all people have the ability to walk away.
- Mendenhall 10y ago
  Then the person applying will be in a position of weakness. That to me is letting "worry" even if real drag you down. I think when you really need something it is even more important to negotiate from a position of strength, if not they will sense it and pick it apart. In some ways its much like dating, does anyone really want the desperate type ?
  - vertex-four 10y ago
    "Always be able to walk away" is not very good advice to people who don't have the option to walk away, whether people should always have that option or not in a perfect world. "Pretend you're able to walk away" possibly is, but not everyone's good at playing games like that. The alternative to not working is, eventually, losing almost everything you have. The alternative to not having a romantic partner is, well, not having a romantic partner. You're not going to die from lack of love.
    - 15155 10y ago
      > not everyone's good at playing games like that. For those that aren't good at faking it until they make it (negotiation): obtain the opportunity to walk away. Take the position as offered and immediately begin seeking new options.
    - JoblessWonder 10y ago
      You get what I'm trying to say. :) Thanks for trying to clear it up.
    - Mendenhall 10y ago
      "always be able to walk away" to me includes never allowing yourself to be in a position where you cant walk away. I think of that as an actual survival trait not just a business skill. I would also say never pretend, actually be willing to walk away. Someone good at psychology or picking up subtle clues will see right through pretending. Anyway you slice it being desperate is never good, don't be desperate.
      - JoblessWonder 10y ago
        I'll be honest, you sound like someone who has never had to be desperate. There are times in someone's life when it isn't a choice.
      - vertex-four 10y ago
        What a wonderful piece of advice. "Never get in a bad situation!" - people don't intentionally get into bad situations, really, believe it or not.
  - 15155 10y ago
    > In some ways its much like dating, does anyone really want the desperate type ? I think this question has been answered and studied quite well. If you have a significant lapse in employment (with or without explanation) or are obviously needy, prospective employers will have negative biases that directly translate into less compensation.
  - JoblessWonder 10y ago
    That is exactly what I'm saying. They are in a position of weakness. Their BATNA is losing everything they have. You don't need to be desperate, but you can't be as cut-throat.
    - Mendenhall 10y ago
      You have valid points that I think are very much worth considering and should be. I appreciate good convo in threads like this so didn't want to come across as trying to be petty or battling your perspective. Also yes I understood your point :)
      - JoblessWonder 10y ago
        Same here. I totally agree with the fact that you should always be negotiating and don't sell yourself short by thinking you don't deserve what you are worth.
- zenlikethat 10y ago
  Even in that position you can still negotiate though. A good company won't revoke an offer simply because you asked for more money. And if they won't budge on salary you can ask for more vacation time, etc.
  - JoblessWonder 10y ago
    Oh I'm not saying "don't negotiate." Always negotiate. I'm just saying that OP sounded like he was saying "if they don't meet your demands, walk away." Which is great advice if you can afford to take it.
- 15155 10y ago
  > Not all people have the ability to walk away. So you hire someone in a weaker position for less or even exactly what they're worth: 6 months later, when they're now in a stronger (employed) position, they find a new employer and you're stuck with the ramp-up and churn tab. It's a seller's market right now. The biggest advantage an employer holds is the disparity in information; most underpaid people aren't aware they're underpaid.
sethd 10y ago
> I like ideally to pay for work not for hours etc, if you give me what I want I don't care if I am paying you $3000 dollars and you worked a half hour and slept for a week out of town I would say it almost never works out this way, more likely you end up doing a lot more work than you originally imagined and thus bringing your hourly way down. There's also a strong incentive for the buyer to manipulate this to their advantage. The exception would be very small and predictable jobs (tasks?) but for everything else my advice would be to always get paid based on hours actually worked.
dpweb 10y ago
Recently bought a car and went by myself cause a friend and wife didn't even want to talk to the sales guy - such a fear of negotiation. I want to be prepared going in, so the plan was: They have a price, I counter. They counter in the middle. I either take that price or walk, that's it. No further negotiation. Reduced the stress by just sticking to that.
- linkregister 10y ago
  Just make sure you aren't waiting for them to relinquish the keys to your car they took to evaluate its value as a trade-in. I once had to threaten to call the police in order to get the keys back so I could leave!
  - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
    Threaten to call the police? Call them. Get an incident number. Report them to whatever regulators are around.
  - wtracy 10y ago
    Actually, never trade in your existing car at the dealer where you make your new purchase (unless you are a skilled negotiator). Typically, whatever discounts you ask for on the new car, they will quietly subtract from their "evaluation" of your old car's value.
    - basseq 10y ago
      Alternatively, have another offer in hand. CarMax is a good way to establish a minimum quickly and easily. You can always get more in the private market, but you should weigh the trade-offs in speed of transaction. (E.g., I could spend 10 hours and the next 2 weeks posting on Craigslist and dealing with people and get $12k, or I could sell to the dealer now for $10k. That might be worth it to me.) I've done this a couple times: the first time the dealer came back with a better number, and I took it. The second time the dealer was way low and I sold on the private market for 100% more. The real key is to separate out variables. Negotiate only on the bottom-line cash value of the car(s), and know when to walk. Last car I bought, the dealer tried to play hardball and told me there was another individual looking to purchase the same vehicle for more. I told them to take the other offer, and put my coat on. I should have gone over and introduced myself to the other guy.

JoblessWonder 10y ago

> I find its the person who is applying that has the power not the company I think you are assuming the person applying has some sort of safety net (a current job, savings, alternate income.) That is where the BATNA comes into play. Sure, if you are already making an acceptable amount of money to meet your needs, aren't overworked/over-stressed, and relatively satisfied then you are indeed in a position of power. If you need to get hired some place within 2 months and have been having trouble getting a job then you very well might not be in a position of power. Not all people have the ability to walk away.

Mendenhall 10y ago
Then the person applying will be in a position of weakness. That to me is letting "worry" even if real drag you down. I think when you really need something it is even more important to negotiate from a position of strength, if not they will sense it and pick it apart. In some ways its much like dating, does anyone really want the desperate type ?
- vertex-four 10y ago
  "Always be able to walk away" is not very good advice to people who don't have the option to walk away, whether people should always have that option or not in a perfect world. "Pretend you're able to walk away" possibly is, but not everyone's good at playing games like that. The alternative to not working is, eventually, losing almost everything you have. The alternative to not having a romantic partner is, well, not having a romantic partner. You're not going to die from lack of love.
  - 15155 10y ago
    > not everyone's good at playing games like that. For those that aren't good at faking it until they make it (negotiation): obtain the opportunity to walk away. Take the position as offered and immediately begin seeking new options.
  - JoblessWonder 10y ago
    You get what I'm trying to say. :) Thanks for trying to clear it up.
  - Mendenhall 10y ago
    "always be able to walk away" to me includes never allowing yourself to be in a position where you cant walk away. I think of that as an actual survival trait not just a business skill. I would also say never pretend, actually be willing to walk away. Someone good at psychology or picking up subtle clues will see right through pretending. Anyway you slice it being desperate is never good, don't be desperate.
    - JoblessWonder 10y ago
      I'll be honest, you sound like someone who has never had to be desperate. There are times in someone's life when it isn't a choice.
    - vertex-four 10y ago
      What a wonderful piece of advice. "Never get in a bad situation!" - people don't intentionally get into bad situations, really, believe it or not.
- 15155 10y ago
  > In some ways its much like dating, does anyone really want the desperate type ? I think this question has been answered and studied quite well. If you have a significant lapse in employment (with or without explanation) or are obviously needy, prospective employers will have negative biases that directly translate into less compensation.
- JoblessWonder 10y ago
  That is exactly what I'm saying. They are in a position of weakness. Their BATNA is losing everything they have. You don't need to be desperate, but you can't be as cut-throat.
  - Mendenhall 10y ago
    You have valid points that I think are very much worth considering and should be. I appreciate good convo in threads like this so didn't want to come across as trying to be petty or battling your perspective. Also yes I understood your point :)
    - JoblessWonder 10y ago
      Same here. I totally agree with the fact that you should always be negotiating and don't sell yourself short by thinking you don't deserve what you are worth.
zenlikethat 10y ago
Even in that position you can still negotiate though. A good company won't revoke an offer simply because you asked for more money. And if they won't budge on salary you can ask for more vacation time, etc.
- JoblessWonder 10y ago
  Oh I'm not saying "don't negotiate." Always negotiate. I'm just saying that OP sounded like he was saying "if they don't meet your demands, walk away." Which is great advice if you can afford to take it.
15155 10y ago
> Not all people have the ability to walk away. So you hire someone in a weaker position for less or even exactly what they're worth: 6 months later, when they're now in a stronger (employed) position, they find a new employer and you're stuck with the ramp-up and churn tab. It's a seller's market right now. The biggest advantage an employer holds is the disparity in information; most underpaid people aren't aware they're underpaid.

sethd 10y ago

> I like ideally to pay for work not for hours etc, if you give me what I want I don't care if I am paying you $3000 dollars and you worked a half hour and slept for a week out of town I would say it almost never works out this way, more likely you end up doing a lot more work than you originally imagined and thus bringing your hourly way down. There's also a strong incentive for the buyer to manipulate this to their advantage. The exception would be very small and predictable jobs (tasks?) but for everything else my advice would be to always get paid based on hours actually worked.

dpweb 10y ago

Recently bought a car and went by myself cause a friend and wife didn't even want to talk to the sales guy - such a fear of negotiation. I want to be prepared going in, so the plan was: They have a price, I counter. They counter in the middle. I either take that price or walk, that's it. No further negotiation. Reduced the stress by just sticking to that.

linkregister 10y ago
Just make sure you aren't waiting for them to relinquish the keys to your car they took to evaluate its value as a trade-in. I once had to threaten to call the police in order to get the keys back so I could leave!
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago
  Threaten to call the police? Call them. Get an incident number. Report them to whatever regulators are around.
- wtracy 10y ago
  Actually, never trade in your existing car at the dealer where you make your new purchase (unless you are a skilled negotiator). Typically, whatever discounts you ask for on the new car, they will quietly subtract from their "evaluation" of your old car's value.
  - basseq 10y ago
    Alternatively, have another offer in hand. CarMax is a good way to establish a minimum quickly and easily. You can always get more in the private market, but you should weigh the trade-offs in speed of transaction. (E.g., I could spend 10 hours and the next 2 weeks posting on Craigslist and dealing with people and get $12k, or I could sell to the dealer now for $10k. That might be worth it to me.) I've done this a couple times: the first time the dealer came back with a better number, and I took it. The second time the dealer was way low and I sold on the private market for 100% more. The real key is to separate out variables. Negotiate only on the bottom-line cash value of the car(s), and know when to walk. Last car I bought, the dealer tried to play hardball and told me there was another individual looking to purchase the same vehicle for more. I told them to take the other offer, and put my coat on. I should have gone over and introduced myself to the other guy.