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> That’s the advice from a prominent thought leader in tech to women suffering from harassment at tech events. “Just make it clear you’re in a relationship.” S

by doktrin 10y ago

> That’s the advice from a prominent thought leader in tech to women suffering from harassment at tech events. “Just make it clear you’re in a relationship.” So I clicked on the linked article, and - sure enough - this suggestion is made, but it's also only 1 of 6 bullet points on the topic. The rest being : Don’t assume people are hitting on you. Make friends with the men. Make friends with the women. Leave before the party takes that turn. Recruit help. Honestly, those tips strike me as more germane and helpful than those put forth in this rebuttal : Be compassionate: just because your experience is different, it doesn’t mean the experiences of others are less valid or not real. Be compassionate: tactics that work for you may not work for everybody. Be compassionate: don’t blame the victims or those reporting negative behavior. That sounds like a great ideal to strive for, but doesn't strike me as particularly useful advice. The world would be a better place if we were all appropriately compassionate, but most people will probably get more utility out of advice that targets the world as it actually is rather than how it ought to be. Advising someone to avoid a dodgy neighborhood isn't victim blaming - it's risk mitigation.

keyanp 10y ago
Notice that the author writes: > Way to put all of the responsibility back on the people reporting the harassment. This is the key point. Notice that the six bullets above are all demanding preventative measures from the victim. We do not need to provide victims with > advice that targets the world as it actually is but instead we need to provide all members of the community advice that targets how they can (and should) be preventing transgressions against others.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  Its not either - or. We can do all of the above.
- powera 10y ago
  Telling people "not to blame the victim" is a completely useless way to avoid harassment. I couldn't possibly actively do that to avoid harassment if I tried, because it's not even an action. Unless I'm mistaken, you're literally saying that people who are harassed should just wait for the harasser to do something else.
- uremog 10y ago
  If you live in a high crime area, you secure your house even if you have to put bars on your windows. Then you can campaign for a safer neighborhood. It's not a requirement, or a demand, or blaming the victim, it's just sensible to protect the self first, then make the environment better.
- doktrin 10y ago
  > We do not need to provide victims with advice that "targets the world as it actually is" Unless I'm completely misunderstanding you, this is nothing short of delusional. We absolutely need to provide victims - and potential victims - with the tools to handle (or avoid) unpleasant and dangerous situations. > but instead we need to provide all members of the community advice that targets how they can (and should) be preventing transgressions against others. As others have mentioned, these aren't mutually exclusive options. Social norms can - and have - changed for the better, but it's more than a little ridiculous to expect victims to wait a generation or two in the hope that society will become more self aware. What's so evil about advice that is intended to improve their quality of life now?
Jordrok 10y ago
Yeah, this is an odd article. I read the post in question as soon as I saw the link before continuing with the rest of this one, and I came away with a totally different impression. It seemed like a thoughtful recounting of one woman's experiences and her sharing some strategies that have worked for her. Then I jumped back and read the rest of the original article and was immediately put off by how glib and confrontational it seemed in comparison.
fluxquanta 10y ago
>Advising someone to avoid a dodgy neighborhood isn't victim blaming - it's risk mitigation. The victim-blaming reaction to advising caution is something I've never understood, and, unfortunately, too often people are colored into one of two bins: You're either an ally or some kind of rapist sympathizer. The fact of the matter is that a rapist (or, to be less severe, someone who puts on continued, unwanted advances or cat calls) isn't reading pieces on Medium or HN, and they're probably not particularly receptive to being told that their behavior is wrong. The people capable of decency already know not to do it in the first place. So why is it so bad to suggest taking control of the situation yourself through risk mitigation? Of course, you shouldn't have to change your behavior, but as it stands it's the only thing you really can, directly, control.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  Its only a problem when that comment ends the discussion. Its important to go further (than we ever have before) and discuss how to bring the fight to the enemy, so to speak.
  - fluxquanta 10y ago
    As someone who considers himself a "good guy", I would love to know how I could help influence potential assaulters to change their thoughts and behavior. However, outside of intervening when I see something fishy (which I have done in the past) or some sort of 1984-esque thoughtcrime prosecution, I don't know what else could be done that would be more effective than risk mitigation on the part of the potential victim. Saying "we need to go further" is a nice thought, but I legitimately don't know what other options are available.
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
      That's the dialog. No profit in shutting it down with defeatism. And I admit there's a good deal of frustration behind the nitpicking about "stop blaming the victim!" because that's not follow up with "so do this instead..."
- 10y ago

by doktrin 10y ago

keyanp 10y ago

Notice that the author writes: > Way to put all of the responsibility back on the people reporting the harassment. This is the key point. Notice that the six bullets above are all demanding preventative measures from the victim. We do not need to provide victims with > advice that targets the world as it actually is but instead we need to provide all members of the community advice that targets how they can (and should) be preventing transgressions against others.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
Its not either - or. We can do all of the above.
powera 10y ago
Telling people "not to blame the victim" is a completely useless way to avoid harassment. I couldn't possibly actively do that to avoid harassment if I tried, because it's not even an action. Unless I'm mistaken, you're literally saying that people who are harassed should just wait for the harasser to do something else.
uremog 10y ago
If you live in a high crime area, you secure your house even if you have to put bars on your windows. Then you can campaign for a safer neighborhood. It's not a requirement, or a demand, or blaming the victim, it's just sensible to protect the self first, then make the environment better.
doktrin 10y ago
> We do not need to provide victims with advice that "targets the world as it actually is" Unless I'm completely misunderstanding you, this is nothing short of delusional. We absolutely need to provide victims - and potential victims - with the tools to handle (or avoid) unpleasant and dangerous situations. > but instead we need to provide all members of the community advice that targets how they can (and should) be preventing transgressions against others. As others have mentioned, these aren't mutually exclusive options. Social norms can - and have - changed for the better, but it's more than a little ridiculous to expect victims to wait a generation or two in the hope that society will become more self aware. What's so evil about advice that is intended to improve their quality of life now?

Jordrok 10y ago

Yeah, this is an odd article. I read the post in question as soon as I saw the link before continuing with the rest of this one, and I came away with a totally different impression. It seemed like a thoughtful recounting of one woman's experiences and her sharing some strategies that have worked for her. Then I jumped back and read the rest of the original article and was immediately put off by how glib and confrontational it seemed in comparison.

fluxquanta 10y ago

>Advising someone to avoid a dodgy neighborhood isn't victim blaming - it's risk mitigation. The victim-blaming reaction to advising caution is something I've never understood, and, unfortunately, too often people are colored into one of two bins: You're either an ally or some kind of rapist sympathizer. The fact of the matter is that a rapist (or, to be less severe, someone who puts on continued, unwanted advances or cat calls) isn't reading pieces on Medium or HN, and they're probably not particularly receptive to being told that their behavior is wrong. The people capable of decency already know not to do it in the first place. So why is it so bad to suggest taking control of the situation yourself through risk mitigation? Of course, you shouldn't have to change your behavior, but as it stands it's the only thing you really can, directly, control.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
Its only a problem when that comment ends the discussion. Its important to go further (than we ever have before) and discuss how to bring the fight to the enemy, so to speak.
- fluxquanta 10y ago
  As someone who considers himself a "good guy", I would love to know how I could help influence potential assaulters to change their thoughts and behavior. However, outside of intervening when I see something fishy (which I have done in the past) or some sort of 1984-esque thoughtcrime prosecution, I don't know what else could be done that would be more effective than risk mitigation on the part of the potential victim. Saying "we need to go further" is a nice thought, but I legitimately don't know what other options are available.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    That's the dialog. No profit in shutting it down with defeatism. And I admit there's a good deal of frustration behind the nitpicking about "stop blaming the victim!" because that's not follow up with "so do this instead..."
10y ago