4 ms·

This is a little weird comment to me. I have lots of friends who are nurses that make 90k and higher on the east cost, and have way more prestige,class, respect

by MollyR 10y ago

This is a little weird comment to me. I have lots of friends who are nurses that make 90k and higher on the east cost, and have way more prestige,class, respect from other people than me a software engineer.

wpietri 10y ago
Ok? I am not denying that, but I'm not seeing how it's connected to me telling the "OMG helping women is sexism" guy that there's a history here that he should pay attention to. In particular, the historical comparator to nurses isn't software engineers, it's doctors. Take a look at the gender distribution of medical school graduates: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SwyK7qFvLaI/AAAAAAAAL_Y/MEGO6YUHd1U/s1600/medschool.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SwyK7qFvLaI/AAAAAAAAL_... You can see it take off with Title IX, which banned outright institutional discrimination by gender. A lot of women with interest in and talent for medicine who wanted to become doctors instead became nurses, which fed that historical imbalance. We've fixed the schooling, but we're still working on the outcome; the gender distribution of doctors is still not great: 66% male in the US. So when this guy whines that there are no organizations helping men become nurses, my reply is that the reason women have historically dominated that field is not anti-male barriers to dudes who really want to be nurses, but previous anti-female barriers in the higher-status profession of doctors (and other things they could have done).
- MollyR 10y ago
  Why do we have to work on the equality of outcome ? Isn't equality of opportunity enough ? My friends who are nurses wanted to be nurses, they didn't want to go medical school. They didn't want to wait to make money until their 30's, they considered career paths in relation to having a family. As long as they had the option, I don't see why forcing outcome is important here. As for helping men into nursing, if diversity is good in one field its probably helpful in another. Men might want a male nurse who can emphasize with male concerns. Being a woman, I'm just taking guesses here, like prostate issues, balding, infertility, and whatever else. Maybe we should help men get into fields like nursing and teaching. So boys and girls both have role models in lots of fields. I get the historical context, but I don't think forcing an over reaction in the other direction is better. I think we all benefit from choices and freedom.
  - wpietri 10y ago
    We don't have to force an equality of outcome. But it behooves us to be suspicious when the outcomes aren't equal. For centuries we had unequal outcomes in terms of doctor gender; one defense was "women don't want to be doctors". But when we finally removed the barriers, we see medical school admissions run about equal. I'm all for men going into nursing. You can work on shifting that ratio if you like. But I'm not personally going to work on that because I don't think it is a result of oppression in the same way that keeping women out of medicine was. I'm also fine with a little bit of what looks like overreaction in the moment, because that's how we find out where the balance is. People thought Title IX was an overreaction at the time, too.
    - thomasatethose 10y ago
      Two wrongs don't make a right. All throughout history rich men AND WOMEN of all races, colors and creed tortured the poor. The real issue isn't color, or gender. Its Class.
      - wpietri 10y ago
        I disagree with your notion that in all the world there is only one real issue.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
        thomasatethose 10y ago
        well that's fair. but why do you think the over reaction is ok, which punishes innocent people not the people who created the system. again two wrongs don't make a right, all it does is continue a negative cycle.
        wpietri 10y ago
        The people who created the system are dead. But the people who benefit from the broken system are still alive. (I am one of them.) And pushing the system toward fairness is not actually punishing them. Loss of privilege feels is definitely experienced as loss, so I can see why people would see it as punishment. Note all the rich people who cry rivers over having to pay their fair share or taxes. But reducing injustice is not punishment. Two wrongs don't make a right. But allowing a harmful system to persevere is what continues the negative cycle.

by MollyR 10y ago

wpietri 10y ago

Ok? I am not denying that, but I'm not seeing how it's connected to me telling the "OMG helping women is sexism" guy that there's a history here that he should pay attention to. In particular, the historical comparator to nurses isn't software engineers, it's doctors. Take a look at the gender distribution of medical school graduates: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SwyK7qFvLaI/AAAAAAAAL_Y/MEGO6YUHd1U/s1600/medschool.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SwyK7qFvLaI/AAAAAAAAL_... You can see it take off with Title IX, which banned outright institutional discrimination by gender. A lot of women with interest in and talent for medicine who wanted to become doctors instead became nurses, which fed that historical imbalance. We've fixed the schooling, but we're still working on the outcome; the gender distribution of doctors is still not great: 66% male in the US. So when this guy whines that there are no organizations helping men become nurses, my reply is that the reason women have historically dominated that field is not anti-male barriers to dudes who really want to be nurses, but previous anti-female barriers in the higher-status profession of doctors (and other things they could have done).

MollyR 10y ago
Why do we have to work on the equality of outcome ? Isn't equality of opportunity enough ? My friends who are nurses wanted to be nurses, they didn't want to go medical school. They didn't want to wait to make money until their 30's, they considered career paths in relation to having a family. As long as they had the option, I don't see why forcing outcome is important here. As for helping men into nursing, if diversity is good in one field its probably helpful in another. Men might want a male nurse who can emphasize with male concerns. Being a woman, I'm just taking guesses here, like prostate issues, balding, infertility, and whatever else. Maybe we should help men get into fields like nursing and teaching. So boys and girls both have role models in lots of fields. I get the historical context, but I don't think forcing an over reaction in the other direction is better. I think we all benefit from choices and freedom.
- wpietri 10y ago
  We don't have to force an equality of outcome. But it behooves us to be suspicious when the outcomes aren't equal. For centuries we had unequal outcomes in terms of doctor gender; one defense was "women don't want to be doctors". But when we finally removed the barriers, we see medical school admissions run about equal. I'm all for men going into nursing. You can work on shifting that ratio if you like. But I'm not personally going to work on that because I don't think it is a result of oppression in the same way that keeping women out of medicine was. I'm also fine with a little bit of what looks like overreaction in the moment, because that's how we find out where the balance is. People thought Title IX was an overreaction at the time, too.
  - thomasatethose 10y ago
    Two wrongs don't make a right. All throughout history rich men AND WOMEN of all races, colors and creed tortured the poor. The real issue isn't color, or gender. Its Class.
    - wpietri 10y ago
      I disagree with your notion that in all the world there is only one real issue.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - thomasatethose 10y ago
        well that's fair. but why do you think the over reaction is ok, which punishes innocent people not the people who created the system. again two wrongs don't make a right, all it does is continue a negative cycle.
        wpietri 10y ago
        The people who created the system are dead. But the people who benefit from the broken system are still alive. (I am one of them.) And pushing the system toward fairness is not actually punishing them. Loss of privilege feels is definitely experienced as loss, so I can see why people would see it as punishment. Note all the rich people who cry rivers over having to pay their fair share or taxes. But reducing injustice is not punishment. Two wrongs don't make a right. But allowing a harmful system to persevere is what continues the negative cycle.