3 ms·

Unpopular opinion on HN, but people are mostly liberals when the current system works for them and it's even more visible as observe the political spectrum outs

Unpopular opinion on HN, but people are mostly liberals when the current system works for them and it's even more visible as observe the political spectrum outside the US. It's easier to say "the market solves everything" when it works for you. When it does not work for them, they turn either to the right or the left side. As the current system is mostly falling apart for the middle class, you then have a raising far-left and far-right as a consequence. That's also why the vast majority of rich people are liberals.

tehwalrus 10y ago
What do you think Liberal means? In the UK, as well as in the USA, it generally doesn't mean "the market solves everything" (You might be thinking of Libertarianism[1]). The article explicitly references redistributive economic views, quite the reverse of the market-centric view you attach to the label. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
- Raticide 10y ago
  In Aus the right wing party is the Liberal party.
  - gonzo41 10y ago
    Mapping Australian politics to the USA is crazy. All sides end up being really left in comparison. Even sanders views on guns are right wing in Australia.
- eivarv 10y ago
  Generally, when people say "liberal" in Europe they mean "economically liberal", while people mean "socially liberal" in the US.
  - ionised 10y ago
    I've always used 'liberal' in the socially liberal sense (I'm from the UK). Here we tend to use 'neo-liberal' to describe the laissez-faire attitude towards economics.
    - eivarv 10y ago
      If so, the UK is different from mainland Europe in this regard. I do find it peculiar, though, that "neo-liberalism" is of a different form than "liberalism", and hence not really "new liberalism":P
      - tehwalrus 10y ago
        If anything, it's very old Liberalism. Way back when, (Whigs and Tories era), the "Liberals" we're the ones arguing for free markets as opposed to Feudalism. This is where attachment of the word "Liberal" to free market-ists originates, I think.
  - tehwalrus 10y ago
    In the UK, "the liberals" (a.k.a The Liberal Democrats) are "social liberals" (indeed, we usually claim to be the largest Social Liberal party in Europe.) In the rest of Europe, it does tend to break down in the way you describe. In 2009 (not sure if still the case), Denmark had a centre-right party called Venstre in government ("The Liberal Party"), and a much smaller party Radikal Venstre in opposition ("The Social Liberal Party"). This pattern (with or without the smaller one) tends to be the pattern in most of Europe I believe. However, the article is discussing US Politics, so that is where the confusion arises. I would like to argue that the {Liberal => Social liberal} mapping comes from JS Mill in the UK in the late 1800s, but I'm sure it originates before then. Note also that the Lib Dems, a merger of the Liberal Party and the SDP, were not right wingers (Liberals) and left wingers (Social Democrat Party) merging, they were a historical Social Liberal party (Lib) merging with a relatively right wing spin off from Labour (SDP).
enraged_camel 10y ago
What you describe is conservatism, not liberalism. Edit: downvotes? really?
jadyoyster 10y ago
You're thinking of what "liberal" means in most of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalism But the article talks about a different kind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_the_United_State...
- realusername 10y ago
  Oh interesting, I'm indeed French and it's interesting to see that it does not mean the same thing, I've misinterpreted parts of the article then. Actually, even on wikipedia, the content between the same pages is completely different, interesting to see !
  - drexel 10y ago
    Liberal basically means the opposite of what it used to mean in the U.S. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
    - panglott 10y ago
      "Liberal" means exactly what it always meant: there have always been different strains of liberalism. It's just the conservatives and libertarians who are picky about what they call themselves, defining themselves in opposition.

tehwalrus 10y ago

What do you think Liberal means? In the UK, as well as in the USA, it generally doesn't mean "the market solves everything" (You might be thinking of Libertarianism[1]). The article explicitly references redistributive economic views, quite the reverse of the market-centric view you attach to the label. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

Raticide 10y ago
In Aus the right wing party is the Liberal party.
- gonzo41 10y ago
  Mapping Australian politics to the USA is crazy. All sides end up being really left in comparison. Even sanders views on guns are right wing in Australia.
eivarv 10y ago
Generally, when people say "liberal" in Europe they mean "economically liberal", while people mean "socially liberal" in the US.
- ionised 10y ago
  I've always used 'liberal' in the socially liberal sense (I'm from the UK). Here we tend to use 'neo-liberal' to describe the laissez-faire attitude towards economics.
  - eivarv 10y ago
    If so, the UK is different from mainland Europe in this regard. I do find it peculiar, though, that "neo-liberalism" is of a different form than "liberalism", and hence not really "new liberalism":P
    - tehwalrus 10y ago
      If anything, it's very old Liberalism. Way back when, (Whigs and Tories era), the "Liberals" we're the ones arguing for free markets as opposed to Feudalism. This is where attachment of the word "Liberal" to free market-ists originates, I think.
- tehwalrus 10y ago
  In the UK, "the liberals" (a.k.a The Liberal Democrats) are "social liberals" (indeed, we usually claim to be the largest Social Liberal party in Europe.) In the rest of Europe, it does tend to break down in the way you describe. In 2009 (not sure if still the case), Denmark had a centre-right party called Venstre in government ("The Liberal Party"), and a much smaller party Radikal Venstre in opposition ("The Social Liberal Party"). This pattern (with or without the smaller one) tends to be the pattern in most of Europe I believe. However, the article is discussing US Politics, so that is where the confusion arises. I would like to argue that the {Liberal => Social liberal} mapping comes from JS Mill in the UK in the late 1800s, but I'm sure it originates before then. Note also that the Lib Dems, a merger of the Liberal Party and the SDP, were not right wingers (Liberals) and left wingers (Social Democrat Party) merging, they were a historical Social Liberal party (Lib) merging with a relatively right wing spin off from Labour (SDP).

enraged_camel 10y ago

What you describe is conservatism, not liberalism. Edit: downvotes? really?

jadyoyster 10y ago

You're thinking of what "liberal" means in most of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalism But the article talks about a different kind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_the_United_State...

realusername 10y ago
Oh interesting, I'm indeed French and it's interesting to see that it does not mean the same thing, I've misinterpreted parts of the article then. Actually, even on wikipedia, the content between the same pages is completely different, interesting to see !
- drexel 10y ago
  Liberal basically means the opposite of what it used to mean in the U.S. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
  - panglott 10y ago
    "Liberal" means exactly what it always meant: there have always been different strains of liberalism. It's just the conservatives and libertarians who are picky about what they call themselves, defining themselves in opposition.