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I'm not denying that Cuba is a poor country. I've pointed out that other Caribbean countries are equally poor, or worse. I'm arguing that you can't simply poin

by dalke 10y ago

I'm not denying that Cuba is a poor country. I've pointed out that other Caribbean countries are equally poor, or worse. I'm arguing that you can't simply point to "Communism" as the reason for Cuba's poverty. BTW, if you believe the numbers at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_food_energy_intake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_food_ener... then Cubans get at least as much food calories as those from the DR and Jamaica. You think Cuba under the corrupt mobster-friendly Bautista was a "leading country ... in many indicators." Well, I don't disagree. Then again, it was also a regressive country in many indicators. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista#Economy_of_Cuba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista#Economy_of_C... . Which indicators do you think are important? Are there other non-Communist countries in the Caribbean which are worse off than Cuba, using those indicators? If so, how can you simply point to Communism as the reason for Cuba's ranking? Again, I point to Puerto Rico, which has a high GDP but increasingly terrible debt crisis, to show that a simple indicator like "GDP" is insufficient. If the US decided to block all bank transactions and trade to/from the Bahamas, as it did Cuba, do you think the Bahamas would be able to maintain its current economy?

andrenth 10y ago
Communism may not be the only reason, but it is certainly a strong one. Latin America has suffered with communist/socialist sympathizing governments for a long time, even if the respective countries are not "officially" communist. For example, here in Brazil we have more than 30 political parties, and they're almost all pretty much left-leaning, to the point that the social democratic party is labeled "right wing" and "neoliberal", whatever that means. It's pretty much 50 shades of red down here. I never mentioned GDP until you did and don't consider it sufficient to evaluate quality of life in a country. It was you that brought it to the table. But anyway, my original post's intent was to show the contradiction between the idea that Cuba's problems are due to the embargo (while they could still trade with every other country in the world) and the idea that trade with the US, described as "American imperialism", is the root of a country's problems. If that were the case, Cuba should be in a great situation, since they're free of the imperialists, and that is simply not the case.
- dalke 10y ago
  I live in "socialist sympathizing" Sweden, and disagree with the broad brush of "suffered with communist/socialist sympathizing governments for a long time". Communist is not socialist, and socialist sympathizing governments don't automatically lead to suffering. There are also many shades of red here; on May Day the Social Democrats, Communists, Marxist-Leninists, Red Front, Kurdish Worker's Party, Leftists, Anarcho-Syndicalists, and more will march. I mentioned GDP because you wrote "Exactly. They are able to trade with every other country in the world, and yet Cubans are still living in poverty." I want you to say why that's meaningful. All other Caribbean countries can trade with "every other country in the world", and yet some are still living in poverty equivalent or worse than Cuba. I mentioned some proxy methods to estimate poverty, to back my opinion. That's why I argue that you cannot single out Communism as the primary reason for Cuba's poverty. We have no idea of what it would be like without the embargo. Regarding the embargo, I again point to the Bahamas. Its economy depends on tourism from the US and international banking. Suppose the US were to embargo the Bahamas in the same way it embargos Cuba. Tha is, restrict travel and trade to the Bahamas, and prevent financial transactions to/from the Bahamas from going through the US banking networks. (Remember, the US can control SWIFT transactions inside the EU if they concern Cuba and transit the US network - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Worldwide_Interbank_Financial_Telecommunication#U.S._control_over_transactions_within_the_EU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Worldwide_Interban... ). How much poorer would the non-Communist Bahamas get if the US were to embargo that country? Or, how much richer do you think Cuba would be if the US allowed the import of Cuban sugar, and dropped the tariffs which double the price of foreign sugar? It's much more expensive for Cuba to ship sugar to Europe than to the US.
  - andrenth 10y ago
    > I live in "socialist sympathizing" Sweden, and disagree with the broad brush of "suffered with communist/socialist sympathizing governments for a long time". Communist is not socialist, and socialist sympathizing governments don't automatically lead to suffering. I'm sure there are many socialism sympathizers in Sweden, but it's not a socialist country. It's a welfare state, and conflating the two to mean the same is a serious mistake that keeps being repeated. If you want to distribute wealth, there must be wealth to be distributed. How was that wealth created in the first place? Sweden, like other Nordic countries often used by misguided people to show how "socialism works", is a market economy, ranking high in economic freedom. The top income tax for companies, for example, is lower than in the US. Luckily for you, your shades of red have not been in power. > I want you to say why that's meaningful. It's meaningful because defenders of Cuba's dictatorship say that Cuba would be heaven on earth if it weren't for the embargo. Why should they even want to trade with the evil empire though? Again, I'm making a comparison between Latin American governments who claim that all that is bad comes from US trade and defenders of Cuba who claim it's all the fault of lack of trade. > All other Caribbean countries can trade with "every other country in the world", and yet some are still living in poverty equivalent or worse than Cuba. Communism implies poverty. That doesn't mean absence of communism implies wealth. For example, a tribal community is not communist and is not wealthy. And of course the Bahamas would be worse off if trade with the US would suddenly stop. That's the whole point. Trade is beneficial, and not an imperialist weapon.

by dalke 10y ago

andrenth 10y ago

Communism may not be the only reason, but it is certainly a strong one. Latin America has suffered with communist/socialist sympathizing governments for a long time, even if the respective countries are not "officially" communist. For example, here in Brazil we have more than 30 political parties, and they're almost all pretty much left-leaning, to the point that the social democratic party is labeled "right wing" and "neoliberal", whatever that means. It's pretty much 50 shades of red down here. I never mentioned GDP until you did and don't consider it sufficient to evaluate quality of life in a country. It was you that brought it to the table. But anyway, my original post's intent was to show the contradiction between the idea that Cuba's problems are due to the embargo (while they could still trade with every other country in the world) and the idea that trade with the US, described as "American imperialism", is the root of a country's problems. If that were the case, Cuba should be in a great situation, since they're free of the imperialists, and that is simply not the case.

dalke 10y ago
I live in "socialist sympathizing" Sweden, and disagree with the broad brush of "suffered with communist/socialist sympathizing governments for a long time". Communist is not socialist, and socialist sympathizing governments don't automatically lead to suffering. There are also many shades of red here; on May Day the Social Democrats, Communists, Marxist-Leninists, Red Front, Kurdish Worker's Party, Leftists, Anarcho-Syndicalists, and more will march. I mentioned GDP because you wrote "Exactly. They are able to trade with every other country in the world, and yet Cubans are still living in poverty." I want you to say why that's meaningful. All other Caribbean countries can trade with "every other country in the world", and yet some are still living in poverty equivalent or worse than Cuba. I mentioned some proxy methods to estimate poverty, to back my opinion. That's why I argue that you cannot single out Communism as the primary reason for Cuba's poverty. We have no idea of what it would be like without the embargo. Regarding the embargo, I again point to the Bahamas. Its economy depends on tourism from the US and international banking. Suppose the US were to embargo the Bahamas in the same way it embargos Cuba. Tha is, restrict travel and trade to the Bahamas, and prevent financial transactions to/from the Bahamas from going through the US banking networks. (Remember, the US can control SWIFT transactions inside the EU if they concern Cuba and transit the US network - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Worldwide_Interbank_Financial_Telecommunication#U.S._control_over_transactions_within_the_EU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Worldwide_Interban... ). How much poorer would the non-Communist Bahamas get if the US were to embargo that country? Or, how much richer do you think Cuba would be if the US allowed the import of Cuban sugar, and dropped the tariffs which double the price of foreign sugar? It's much more expensive for Cuba to ship sugar to Europe than to the US.
- andrenth 10y ago
  > I live in "socialist sympathizing" Sweden, and disagree with the broad brush of "suffered with communist/socialist sympathizing governments for a long time". Communist is not socialist, and socialist sympathizing governments don't automatically lead to suffering. I'm sure there are many socialism sympathizers in Sweden, but it's not a socialist country. It's a welfare state, and conflating the two to mean the same is a serious mistake that keeps being repeated. If you want to distribute wealth, there must be wealth to be distributed. How was that wealth created in the first place? Sweden, like other Nordic countries often used by misguided people to show how "socialism works", is a market economy, ranking high in economic freedom. The top income tax for companies, for example, is lower than in the US. Luckily for you, your shades of red have not been in power. > I want you to say why that's meaningful. It's meaningful because defenders of Cuba's dictatorship say that Cuba would be heaven on earth if it weren't for the embargo. Why should they even want to trade with the evil empire though? Again, I'm making a comparison between Latin American governments who claim that all that is bad comes from US trade and defenders of Cuba who claim it's all the fault of lack of trade. > All other Caribbean countries can trade with "every other country in the world", and yet some are still living in poverty equivalent or worse than Cuba. Communism implies poverty. That doesn't mean absence of communism implies wealth. For example, a tribal community is not communist and is not wealthy. And of course the Bahamas would be worse off if trade with the US would suddenly stop. That's the whole point. Trade is beneficial, and not an imperialist weapon.