5 ms·

What would people think if the genders were reversed and this institution was discriminating against women and only helping men? Women have a far larger presenc

by H0n3sty 10y ago

What would people think if the genders were reversed and this institution was discriminating against women and only helping men? Women have a far larger presence in other fields like biology and education, but you don't see new organizations popping up every other month to change that in favor of men. Discrimination like this should be illegal.

wpietri 10y ago
The reason women dominate in certain fields is that those fields were generally seen as less important, so women were pushed into them. E.g., doctors were men, women were nurses, and there was an enormous pay and prestige difference between the two. (Hint: it did not favor the nurses.) If you're interested in learning more, researching "pink ghetto" will get you started.
- reednj 10y ago
  80% of people working in PR are women. Is that a pink ghetto as well?
  - dopamean 10y ago
    Definitely.
  - gaylemcd 10y ago
    And PR is not very well paid.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- brighteyes 10y ago
  That is a theory that can explain some fields. However, so many exceptions exist that it can't be the whole story. For example, women dominate * Clinical psychology * Veterinary medicine * Biology All of which are important, fulfilling, well-paying fields. In all of them it's hard to say women were "pushed" there, rather women were very interested in them, and arrived in larger numbers than men.
  - wpietri 10y ago
    I don't recall saying it was the whole story. It's a big world. I'm just telling the "OMG discrimination" guy that it's important to understand the history. But if you'd like to claim those as important exceptions, you'd have to show that those fields are important and well-paying relative to other options available to those women.
- HarshTruth 10y ago
  Its actually the other way around. Men face more pressure to earn a higher income than women, so more men enter higher paying careers. 1. Women prefer to marry a guy who makes more money than her. So there is significant sexual pressure to become a high status ($) man. 2. Men (statistically) can't marry up large income gaps. So they know that what ever lifestyle they want, they have to be solely responsible for it. Women on the other hand have more freedom to do what they desire since men care far less about their partners income, and women have the economic security of being able to marry a higher income partner.
  - strictnein 10y ago
    Men also end up working in far more dangerous jobs, which pay more. The gap in workplace accidents and deaths affecting men vs women is staggering. Over 90% of workplace deaths are men.
  - arsenide 10y ago
    "Men face more pressure to earn a higher income than women, so more men enter higher paying careers." Citation?
  - wpietri 10y ago
    That sounds good, but, it's mainly retrograde sexist bunk. It also ignores the long history of women fighting for access to those professions and being actively denied. Which you presumably know as well, which is why you created a new, anonymous account rather than owning your words.
- MollyR 10y ago
  This is a little weird comment to me. I have lots of friends who are nurses that make 90k and higher on the east cost, and have way more prestige,class, respect from other people than me a software engineer.
  - wpietri 10y ago
    Ok? I am not denying that, but I'm not seeing how it's connected to me telling the "OMG helping women is sexism" guy that there's a history here that he should pay attention to. In particular, the historical comparator to nurses isn't software engineers, it's doctors. Take a look at the gender distribution of medical school graduates: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SwyK7qFvLaI/AAAAAAAAL_Y/MEGO6YUHd1U/s1600/medschool.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SwyK7qFvLaI/AAAAAAAAL_... You can see it take off with Title IX, which banned outright institutional discrimination by gender. A lot of women with interest in and talent for medicine who wanted to become doctors instead became nurses, which fed that historical imbalance. We've fixed the schooling, but we're still working on the outcome; the gender distribution of doctors is still not great: 66% male in the US. So when this guy whines that there are no organizations helping men become nurses, my reply is that the reason women have historically dominated that field is not anti-male barriers to dudes who really want to be nurses, but previous anti-female barriers in the higher-status profession of doctors (and other things they could have done).
    - MollyR 10y ago
      Why do we have to work on the equality of outcome ? Isn't equality of opportunity enough ? My friends who are nurses wanted to be nurses, they didn't want to go medical school. They didn't want to wait to make money until their 30's, they considered career paths in relation to having a family. As long as they had the option, I don't see why forcing outcome is important here. As for helping men into nursing, if diversity is good in one field its probably helpful in another. Men might want a male nurse who can emphasize with male concerns. Being a woman, I'm just taking guesses here, like prostate issues, balding, infertility, and whatever else. Maybe we should help men get into fields like nursing and teaching. So boys and girls both have role models in lots of fields. I get the historical context, but I don't think forcing an over reaction in the other direction is better. I think we all benefit from choices and freedom.
gaylemcd 10y ago
So you mean if you totally changed the context? Gee, for this completely different situation that really has little to do with this one, yes people would be offended. But, you know, the context and implications are so completely different. What's your point?
- imaginenore 10y ago
  Reversing the genders is not totally changing the context. It just shows that it is discrimination based on gender.
  - jacalata 10y ago
    It is changing the context. I don't know if you know this, but there are a lot of existing gender-based influences in the world already, they aren't inventing the concept.
  - deciplex 10y ago
    Unfortunately fighting discrimination purely by working to eliminate instances of it and revert to a gender-neutral (or race-neutral, or sexual orientation-neutral, etc) method of operation does not work. You must counter discrimination by elevating the oppressed group i.e. giving them privileges the already-privileged group does not possess. This is the basis of affirmative action, for example. It works because we care first and foremost about the net privilege one group possesses over the other, not that they have one particular privilege that another group does not (though obviously the long-term goal is to eliminate that as well). And, in case you were not aware, there remains a significant "privilege gap" between the genders and it is in favor of men. Once that gap no longer exists, we can talk about rolling back these programs.
    - H0n3sty 10y ago
      What if the "privilege" you think you see is actually a difference in average ability or preferences between groups of people that are in fact different from each other? Affirmative action does not help the groups it is directed towards, it simply handicaps them further by preventing them from being properly matched to their level or ability. Clarence Thomas recently wrote about this in detail... Slaveholders argued that slavery was a ‘positive good’ that civilized blacks and elevated them in every dimension of life. A century later, segregationists similarly asserted that segregation was not only benign, but good for black students. Although cloaked in good intentions, the University’s racial tinkering harms the very people it claims to be helping If you'd like to learn about the unfortunate real outcomes of affirmative action then I strongly recommend researching Clarence Thomas and Thomas Sowell.
parennoob 10y ago
You have a point. From the article, “One member, Erica Stanley, had a Masters in Computer Science but felt held back because she wasn’t confident in her skills as a public speaker. WWCode presented her with the opportunity to step up and lead WWCode Atlanta’s programs, including technical events and hackathons.” I know this sounds a bit glib – but I'm aware of several men (including myself, an Asian person of color) with higher degrees who feel held back because of a lack of confidence as a public speaker. Where are our support groups and opportunities? (Seriously, if you have any, my email is in my profile).
- H0n3sty 10y ago
  I spent a few years teaching math and I think that made public speaking rather easy for me. If you're looking for a supportive group to help improve your public speaking skills then I recommend you checkout your local toastmasters group. I've not attended myself, but I've heard from several members that it was life changing for them. Just like most every other group, they don't discriminate based on race or gender - so you should be very welcome. If there's a technology you really like working with, then you might want to look on meetup.com to see if you can find some like minded people and look for an opportunity to present something. Some of the meetup.com groups discriminate based on gender or race, but the vast majority do not and are very welcoming :)
- nekitamo 10y ago
  http://www.toastmasters.org http://www.toastmasters.org

by H0n3sty 10y ago

wpietri 10y ago

The reason women dominate in certain fields is that those fields were generally seen as less important, so women were pushed into them. E.g., doctors were men, women were nurses, and there was an enormous pay and prestige difference between the two. (Hint: it did not favor the nurses.) If you're interested in learning more, researching "pink ghetto" will get you started.

reednj 10y ago
80% of people working in PR are women. Is that a pink ghetto as well?
- dopamean 10y ago
  Definitely.
- gaylemcd 10y ago
  And PR is not very well paid.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
brighteyes 10y ago
That is a theory that can explain some fields. However, so many exceptions exist that it can't be the whole story. For example, women dominate * Clinical psychology * Veterinary medicine * Biology All of which are important, fulfilling, well-paying fields. In all of them it's hard to say women were "pushed" there, rather women were very interested in them, and arrived in larger numbers than men.
- wpietri 10y ago
  I don't recall saying it was the whole story. It's a big world. I'm just telling the "OMG discrimination" guy that it's important to understand the history. But if you'd like to claim those as important exceptions, you'd have to show that those fields are important and well-paying relative to other options available to those women.
HarshTruth 10y ago
Its actually the other way around. Men face more pressure to earn a higher income than women, so more men enter higher paying careers. 1. Women prefer to marry a guy who makes more money than her. So there is significant sexual pressure to become a high status ($) man. 2. Men (statistically) can't marry up large income gaps. So they know that what ever lifestyle they want, they have to be solely responsible for it. Women on the other hand have more freedom to do what they desire since men care far less about their partners income, and women have the economic security of being able to marry a higher income partner.
- strictnein 10y ago
  Men also end up working in far more dangerous jobs, which pay more. The gap in workplace accidents and deaths affecting men vs women is staggering. Over 90% of workplace deaths are men.
- arsenide 10y ago
  "Men face more pressure to earn a higher income than women, so more men enter higher paying careers." Citation?
- wpietri 10y ago
  That sounds good, but, it's mainly retrograde sexist bunk. It also ignores the long history of women fighting for access to those professions and being actively denied. Which you presumably know as well, which is why you created a new, anonymous account rather than owning your words.
MollyR 10y ago
This is a little weird comment to me. I have lots of friends who are nurses that make 90k and higher on the east cost, and have way more prestige,class, respect from other people than me a software engineer.
- wpietri 10y ago
  Ok? I am not denying that, but I'm not seeing how it's connected to me telling the "OMG helping women is sexism" guy that there's a history here that he should pay attention to. In particular, the historical comparator to nurses isn't software engineers, it's doctors. Take a look at the gender distribution of medical school graduates: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SwyK7qFvLaI/AAAAAAAAL_Y/MEGO6YUHd1U/s1600/medschool.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SwyK7qFvLaI/AAAAAAAAL_... You can see it take off with Title IX, which banned outright institutional discrimination by gender. A lot of women with interest in and talent for medicine who wanted to become doctors instead became nurses, which fed that historical imbalance. We've fixed the schooling, but we're still working on the outcome; the gender distribution of doctors is still not great: 66% male in the US. So when this guy whines that there are no organizations helping men become nurses, my reply is that the reason women have historically dominated that field is not anti-male barriers to dudes who really want to be nurses, but previous anti-female barriers in the higher-status profession of doctors (and other things they could have done).
  - MollyR 10y ago
    Why do we have to work on the equality of outcome ? Isn't equality of opportunity enough ? My friends who are nurses wanted to be nurses, they didn't want to go medical school. They didn't want to wait to make money until their 30's, they considered career paths in relation to having a family. As long as they had the option, I don't see why forcing outcome is important here. As for helping men into nursing, if diversity is good in one field its probably helpful in another. Men might want a male nurse who can emphasize with male concerns. Being a woman, I'm just taking guesses here, like prostate issues, balding, infertility, and whatever else. Maybe we should help men get into fields like nursing and teaching. So boys and girls both have role models in lots of fields. I get the historical context, but I don't think forcing an over reaction in the other direction is better. I think we all benefit from choices and freedom.

gaylemcd 10y ago

So you mean if you totally changed the context? Gee, for this completely different situation that really has little to do with this one, yes people would be offended. But, you know, the context and implications are so completely different. What's your point?

imaginenore 10y ago
Reversing the genders is not totally changing the context. It just shows that it is discrimination based on gender.
- jacalata 10y ago
  It is changing the context. I don't know if you know this, but there are a lot of existing gender-based influences in the world already, they aren't inventing the concept.
- deciplex 10y ago
  Unfortunately fighting discrimination purely by working to eliminate instances of it and revert to a gender-neutral (or race-neutral, or sexual orientation-neutral, etc) method of operation does not work. You must counter discrimination by elevating the oppressed group i.e. giving them privileges the already-privileged group does not possess. This is the basis of affirmative action, for example. It works because we care first and foremost about the net privilege one group possesses over the other, not that they have one particular privilege that another group does not (though obviously the long-term goal is to eliminate that as well). And, in case you were not aware, there remains a significant "privilege gap" between the genders and it is in favor of men. Once that gap no longer exists, we can talk about rolling back these programs.
  - H0n3sty 10y ago
    What if the "privilege" you think you see is actually a difference in average ability or preferences between groups of people that are in fact different from each other? Affirmative action does not help the groups it is directed towards, it simply handicaps them further by preventing them from being properly matched to their level or ability. Clarence Thomas recently wrote about this in detail... Slaveholders argued that slavery was a ‘positive good’ that civilized blacks and elevated them in every dimension of life. A century later, segregationists similarly asserted that segregation was not only benign, but good for black students. Although cloaked in good intentions, the University’s racial tinkering harms the very people it claims to be helping If you'd like to learn about the unfortunate real outcomes of affirmative action then I strongly recommend researching Clarence Thomas and Thomas Sowell.

parennoob 10y ago

You have a point. From the article, “One member, Erica Stanley, had a Masters in Computer Science but felt held back because she wasn’t confident in her skills as a public speaker. WWCode presented her with the opportunity to step up and lead WWCode Atlanta’s programs, including technical events and hackathons.” I know this sounds a bit glib – but I'm aware of several men (including myself, an Asian person of color) with higher degrees who feel held back because of a lack of confidence as a public speaker. Where are our support groups and opportunities? (Seriously, if you have any, my email is in my profile).

H0n3sty 10y ago
I spent a few years teaching math and I think that made public speaking rather easy for me. If you're looking for a supportive group to help improve your public speaking skills then I recommend you checkout your local toastmasters group. I've not attended myself, but I've heard from several members that it was life changing for them. Just like most every other group, they don't discriminate based on race or gender - so you should be very welcome. If there's a technology you really like working with, then you might want to look on meetup.com to see if you can find some like minded people and look for an opportunity to present something. Some of the meetup.com groups discriminate based on gender or race, but the vast majority do not and are very welcoming :)
nekitamo 10y ago
http://www.toastmasters.org http://www.toastmasters.org