4 ms·

or you realize Perl, Ruby, Python give you everything good from Lisp anyway with an environment and packages that can talk to the real world, and that macros an

or you realize Perl, Ruby, Python give you everything good from Lisp anyway with an environment and packages that can talk to the real world, and that macros and metaprogramming are massively overrated and a danger in almost any hands that touch those features. Ask me how long I spent banging my head against the wall trying to get OpenGL working in CMUCL with Alien. Jesus jumping-jack Christ. I can only hope things have improved in the past 12 years or so. But I highly doubt it.

pavelludiq 10y ago
I did python professional y for a few years and I missed lisp every day. There is much work to be done, but lisp has improved tremendously in the last decade.
nilkn 10y ago
I don't think that's true. For instance, Python has traditionally been really bad for concurrency but Lisp can be best-in-class (see Clojure's STM). Python is good for single-threaded concurrency now with coroutines and libraries like asyncio, but it still can't compete with something like STM for multithreaded concurrency.
- PuercoPop 10y ago
  Why look at clojure's STM and not CL? https://github.com/cosmos72/stmx https://github.com/cosmos72/stmx
pjmlp 10y ago
> Perl, Ruby, Python give you everything good from Lisp So where are the: - AOT compilers to native code - REPL environments with GUI debuggers, with fix-and-continue? - Ability to do systems programming without having to use an external language? - Macros
- deckard1 10y ago
  > Macros You obviously didn't read my post before listing your pet list of things that are irrelevant. Macros are bad. They are only a benefit to those that are delusional enough to think they are a rockstar. > Ability to do systems programming without having to use an external language? I have no idea what this even means today. "systems programming". Are you from 1980? Perl is vastly more connected to *ix than any Lisp ever developed. There is nothing you can't do in Perl. Ruby and Python aren't that far behind, either. > AOT compilers to native code Totally unnecessary. I can't even think of a reason you'd want this in 2016. Maybe in 1989. But anyway, "native" is disingenuous when talking about Lisp. Unless you just like being an asshole. Lisp requires a GC, and due to the dynamic nature you're constantly jumping through dynamic/static hoops to get exactly what you want. The resulting executable is massive. Perl and I think Python can also compile to "native code". > REPL environments with GUI debuggers, with fix-and-continue? Uhm. Yes? The REPL GUI debugger everyone uses today is called Chrome. You seem to be stuck in the stone age. Web and mobile development are where it's at.
  - dang 10y ago
    Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News. We ban accounts that do this, so please don't do it again. Usenet-style programming flamewars are particularly not wanted here. The founding idea of HN is to try to learn from the community-destroying experiences of the past, and not repeat them, or at least stave them off.
dang 10y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11825955 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11825955 and marked it off-topic. We gave you the benefit of the doubt originally, despite the nasty embers burning in your comment, but then you went full flamewar downthread. We don't want that on HN, so please don't do it again.

pavelludiq 10y ago

I did python professional y for a few years and I missed lisp every day. There is much work to be done, but lisp has improved tremendously in the last decade.

nilkn 10y ago

I don't think that's true. For instance, Python has traditionally been really bad for concurrency but Lisp can be best-in-class (see Clojure's STM). Python is good for single-threaded concurrency now with coroutines and libraries like asyncio, but it still can't compete with something like STM for multithreaded concurrency.

PuercoPop 10y ago
Why look at clojure's STM and not CL? https://github.com/cosmos72/stmx https://github.com/cosmos72/stmx

pjmlp 10y ago

> Perl, Ruby, Python give you everything good from Lisp So where are the: - AOT compilers to native code - REPL environments with GUI debuggers, with fix-and-continue? - Ability to do systems programming without having to use an external language? - Macros

deckard1 10y ago
> Macros You obviously didn't read my post before listing your pet list of things that are irrelevant. Macros are bad. They are only a benefit to those that are delusional enough to think they are a rockstar. > Ability to do systems programming without having to use an external language? I have no idea what this even means today. "systems programming". Are you from 1980? Perl is vastly more connected to *ix than any Lisp ever developed. There is nothing you can't do in Perl. Ruby and Python aren't that far behind, either. > AOT compilers to native code Totally unnecessary. I can't even think of a reason you'd want this in 2016. Maybe in 1989. But anyway, "native" is disingenuous when talking about Lisp. Unless you just like being an asshole. Lisp requires a GC, and due to the dynamic nature you're constantly jumping through dynamic/static hoops to get exactly what you want. The resulting executable is massive. Perl and I think Python can also compile to "native code". > REPL environments with GUI debuggers, with fix-and-continue? Uhm. Yes? The REPL GUI debugger everyone uses today is called Chrome. You seem to be stuck in the stone age. Web and mobile development are where it's at.
- dang 10y ago
  Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News. We ban accounts that do this, so please don't do it again. Usenet-style programming flamewars are particularly not wanted here. The founding idea of HN is to try to learn from the community-destroying experiences of the past, and not repeat them, or at least stave them off.

dang 10y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11825955 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11825955 and marked it off-topic. We gave you the benefit of the doubt originally, despite the nasty embers burning in your comment, but then you went full flamewar downthread. We don't want that on HN, so please don't do it again.