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One measure I like is number o citizens trying to escape the country. But I guess it's only in Cuba that leaving is forbidden. Unfortunately being a democracy

One measure I like is number o citizens trying to escape the country. But I guess it's only in Cuba that leaving is forbidden. Unfortunately being a democracy isn't enough. Without reasonably free market, quality of life for the population will never increase. Both Dominican Republic and Haiti have low scores in the economic freedom index, for example.

dalke 10y ago
"Trying to escape" is not a measure of poverty, so be aware that you've changed the goalposts. I want to know how your phrase "Exactly. They are able to trade with every other country in the world, and yet Cubans are still living in poverty." is meaningful. But let's go with that. What are the numbers, and what does "escape" mean? Does it make sense to talk about the number of Puerto Ricans who are leaving Puerto Rico, when they are US citizens who have the right to migrate internally? ("Puerto Ricans leaving island for U.S. in record numbers" - http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/02/americas/puerto-rico-exodus/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/02/americas/puerto-rico-exodu... ) Does it make sense to compare the numbers of Cubans who reach US soil under the "Wet-Foot, Dry-Foot Policy", vs. from other countries, which don't have that privilege, and are farther away? Do you include large number of Haitians who escaped to the DR? Do you think you're being played by the US government, because Cubans who reach the US directly from Cuba are considered refugees, while those who travel via another country are considered aliens and subjected to US immigration rules? Since the US prohibits commercial traffic to/from Cuba, this incentivizes those who come by boat. From http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/caribbean-immigrants-united-states/ http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/caribbean-immigrants-... : > In 2009, the vast majority of Caribbean immigrants were from Cuba (28.6 percent), the Dominican Republic (22.9 percent), Jamaica (18.8 percent), Haiti (15.5 percent), and Trinidad and Tobago (6.4 percent). Do you classify all of those as people who escaped their country for the US? Or was it only the Cubans you consider to have escaped? And finally, Cuba relaxed its restrictions on foreign travel a few years ago. See http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/10/16/cuba-travel-visa-requirement/1635871/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/10/16/cuba-tra... . For that matter, is isn't only Cuba which places restrictions on foreign travel. We need only look towards Snowden, whose passport was revoked, to see an example of how the US government restricts foreign travel by its citizens. The US can also revoke the passport for non-payment of child support, for certain drug traffickers, for persons convicted of sex tourism, and other reasons.
- andrenth 10y ago
  I have yet to see someone risk their lives fleeing their countries because of too much wealth. Poor living conditions in Cuba are well known. The video below (in Portuguese) is a description of communist abundance, made by a Cuban woman living in Brazil. https://m.facebook.com/163790763963427/videos/178063732536130/?locale2=en_US https://m.facebook.com/163790763963427/videos/17806373253613... In summary, Cubans receive a rationing card that allows them to acquire goods in two places, the grocery store and the butchery. Each person is allowed 2.5kg of sugar, 300g of coffee, 500g of beans and 250ml of soybean oil, 10 eggs, 1 chicken thigh. Per month. All in terrible hygiene conditions. Toilet paper is described as a luxury, extremely expensive and not supplied by the government. If you prefer to ignore this firsthand account, then compare the statistics you found with the ones from before the revolution, when Cuba was a leading country in Latin America in many indicators. The comment about using people trying to escape the country was obviously made in snark. I'm not trying to compare numbers of Cubans who try to escape the prison island with other countries, exactly for the reasons you mention: the comparison makes no sense, as in other countries you simply are free to leave. Yes, it is obviously only Cubans who have escaped. The others simply left their countries when they wanted. It's a bit different from escaping a dictatorship fleeing in precarious boats, don't you think? Finally, yes, Americans can have their travel rights restricted for reasons. Cubans have it like that by default.
  - dalke 10y ago
    I'm not denying that Cuba is a poor country. I've pointed out that other Caribbean countries are equally poor, or worse. I'm arguing that you can't simply point to "Communism" as the reason for Cuba's poverty. BTW, if you believe the numbers at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_food_energy_intake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_food_ener... then Cubans get at least as much food calories as those from the DR and Jamaica. You think Cuba under the corrupt mobster-friendly Bautista was a "leading country ... in many indicators." Well, I don't disagree. Then again, it was also a regressive country in many indicators. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista#Economy_of_Cuba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista#Economy_of_C... . Which indicators do you think are important? Are there other non-Communist countries in the Caribbean which are worse off than Cuba, using those indicators? If so, how can you simply point to Communism as the reason for Cuba's ranking? Again, I point to Puerto Rico, which has a high GDP but increasingly terrible debt crisis, to show that a simple indicator like "GDP" is insufficient. If the US decided to block all bank transactions and trade to/from the Bahamas, as it did Cuba, do you think the Bahamas would be able to maintain its current economy?

dalke 10y ago

"Trying to escape" is not a measure of poverty, so be aware that you've changed the goalposts. I want to know how your phrase "Exactly. They are able to trade with every other country in the world, and yet Cubans are still living in poverty." is meaningful. But let's go with that. What are the numbers, and what does "escape" mean? Does it make sense to talk about the number of Puerto Ricans who are leaving Puerto Rico, when they are US citizens who have the right to migrate internally? ("Puerto Ricans leaving island for U.S. in record numbers" - http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/02/americas/puerto-rico-exodus/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/02/americas/puerto-rico-exodu... ) Does it make sense to compare the numbers of Cubans who reach US soil under the "Wet-Foot, Dry-Foot Policy", vs. from other countries, which don't have that privilege, and are farther away? Do you include large number of Haitians who escaped to the DR? Do you think you're being played by the US government, because Cubans who reach the US directly from Cuba are considered refugees, while those who travel via another country are considered aliens and subjected to US immigration rules? Since the US prohibits commercial traffic to/from Cuba, this incentivizes those who come by boat. From http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/caribbean-immigrants-united-states/ http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/caribbean-immigrants-... : > In 2009, the vast majority of Caribbean immigrants were from Cuba (28.6 percent), the Dominican Republic (22.9 percent), Jamaica (18.8 percent), Haiti (15.5 percent), and Trinidad and Tobago (6.4 percent). Do you classify all of those as people who escaped their country for the US? Or was it only the Cubans you consider to have escaped? And finally, Cuba relaxed its restrictions on foreign travel a few years ago. See http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/10/16/cuba-travel-visa-requirement/1635871/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/10/16/cuba-tra... . For that matter, is isn't only Cuba which places restrictions on foreign travel. We need only look towards Snowden, whose passport was revoked, to see an example of how the US government restricts foreign travel by its citizens. The US can also revoke the passport for non-payment of child support, for certain drug traffickers, for persons convicted of sex tourism, and other reasons.

andrenth 10y ago
I have yet to see someone risk their lives fleeing their countries because of too much wealth. Poor living conditions in Cuba are well known. The video below (in Portuguese) is a description of communist abundance, made by a Cuban woman living in Brazil. https://m.facebook.com/163790763963427/videos/178063732536130/?locale2=en_US https://m.facebook.com/163790763963427/videos/17806373253613... In summary, Cubans receive a rationing card that allows them to acquire goods in two places, the grocery store and the butchery. Each person is allowed 2.5kg of sugar, 300g of coffee, 500g of beans and 250ml of soybean oil, 10 eggs, 1 chicken thigh. Per month. All in terrible hygiene conditions. Toilet paper is described as a luxury, extremely expensive and not supplied by the government. If you prefer to ignore this firsthand account, then compare the statistics you found with the ones from before the revolution, when Cuba was a leading country in Latin America in many indicators. The comment about using people trying to escape the country was obviously made in snark. I'm not trying to compare numbers of Cubans who try to escape the prison island with other countries, exactly for the reasons you mention: the comparison makes no sense, as in other countries you simply are free to leave. Yes, it is obviously only Cubans who have escaped. The others simply left their countries when they wanted. It's a bit different from escaping a dictatorship fleeing in precarious boats, don't you think? Finally, yes, Americans can have their travel rights restricted for reasons. Cubans have it like that by default.
- dalke 10y ago
  I'm not denying that Cuba is a poor country. I've pointed out that other Caribbean countries are equally poor, or worse. I'm arguing that you can't simply point to "Communism" as the reason for Cuba's poverty. BTW, if you believe the numbers at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_food_energy_intake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_food_ener... then Cubans get at least as much food calories as those from the DR and Jamaica. You think Cuba under the corrupt mobster-friendly Bautista was a "leading country ... in many indicators." Well, I don't disagree. Then again, it was also a regressive country in many indicators. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista#Economy_of_Cuba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista#Economy_of_C... . Which indicators do you think are important? Are there other non-Communist countries in the Caribbean which are worse off than Cuba, using those indicators? If so, how can you simply point to Communism as the reason for Cuba's ranking? Again, I point to Puerto Rico, which has a high GDP but increasingly terrible debt crisis, to show that a simple indicator like "GDP" is insufficient. If the US decided to block all bank transactions and trade to/from the Bahamas, as it did Cuba, do you think the Bahamas would be able to maintain its current economy?