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> How is it not problematic when American tech form an oligopoly on internet services? They are the best so they won. I have no problem with that and I don't t

> How is it not problematic when American tech form an oligopoly on internet services? They are the best so they won. I have no problem with that and I don't think anyone should have as long as there's no abuse of power. > Especially when these services need to bend to the whims of American government. This is what I have a problem with.

marxidad 10y ago
They didn't win because they are the best, unless you mean they are the best at winning for arbitrary reasons, like random market forces.
- DominikR 10y ago
  It doesn't look random to me when the biggest IT companies all originate from a small area in or near San Francisco. The US government spent a massive amount of money over decades in infrastructure and in government contracts which in combination with the right legal framework (and capitalism) created this dominance.
  - scholia 10y ago
    Right, because it's not a level playing field. I could start a company in a small European country for €X but tackling the US market would cost me 10 times that, which I haven't got and can't raise. However, the comparable US company can invade my market not by raising 10x more money but by raising 10% more. Even if you're successful, like Spotify, a big American company can start up years later with an inferior product, like Apple, and probably put you out of business. Spotify money is, by Apple's standards, chump change. And if the American company can't knock you out, then it can just buy you. America's home market size and the availability of capital make it very hard to compete, even if you have the talent. And the fact that SV imports almost all the best overseas talent as well as having its own tremendous talents makes things even harder. It's easier with virtual goods than with physical goods, but look at social networking websites for an illustration of the same problem. Sure, you can be the biggest in France or Germany or Italy or whatever, but Facebook just knocked out all the local successes except Russia and China. The only way to play it is to open a small US office and pretend to be American, so you can get US capital and US media promotion. But if you succeeded that way, just how French (or German, or Italian) would you be in the end?
    - DominikR 10y ago
      > However, the comparable US company can invade my market Again talk about "invasion", I'd suggest you don't be so emotional so we can have a fruitful discussion. Aside from that nobody owns the market. You may feel it is an invasion because the barriers are low to do business as a foreigner, but this goes both ways. I successfully sold products in the US as an EU citizen without having an office there, so it is possible. And there are many tech companies from the EU that do the same on a much larger scale. Our problem is really the legal framework, getting loans for starting businesses, getting investments from private investors (this is getting better though) and bureaucracy. In the US you can fail and rebound from it, in most EU countries your life is destroyed because you'll be burdened with debts till the day you leave this earth. (or you lose all wealth you have accumulated to this point) If we in the tech sector weren't so lucky to be able to start businesses with low capital investment I would have never started one because I don't have the rich parents/family that could help me if things go bad. This is the problem from my perspective that we face here and no amount of protectionism will change that. On the other hand I'm truly amazed what risks people take to start businesses in more capital intensive sectors in the EU. I wouldn't have the stomach to do this, to me these people seem almost insane.
      - scholia 10y ago
        All of which may be true but misses the point. The size of the US market, and the availability of venture capital, means that there is no level playing field, and it's therefore almost impossible for most non-US tech companies to compete. For various reasons, this may not wholly apply to Russian and Chinese companies, for example, but it certainly applies in Europe. There are no European tech companies with the size and power of Google , Facebook, Microsoft, Intel, Apple etc. Indeed, there are no European tech companies with the size and power of BMW, VW, and Fiat etc. Nokia, briefly, was a notable exception. If a non-US company is successful, it frequently gets taken over. Nokia, PayPal, Skype, and Minecraft are examples. > no amount of protectionism will change that. I wasn't suggesting protectionism. I was merely pointing out the facts of life in the tech market. Incidentally, none of this is new: it's been happening for decades. US companies also wiped out the European mainframe, minicomputer and PC companies before we got to the point where they are wiping out the internet companies. From the array that included companies such as Siemens, Nixdorf, ICL, Bull, Olivetti, Norsk Data, Acorn, Sinclair and dozens more, really only Siemens has survived, and that's because of its broad industrial base.
Aelinsaar 10y ago
Do you think that Comcast and Verizon have won because they're the best? The best service providers, or the best at killing competition and bribing politicians?
- DominikR 10y ago
  This happens in every sector in every country and should be persecuted. But I just can't believe that the Silicon Valley tech sector dominates the West just because they are somehow the best at bribing politicians. I just take a look at Google or Apple products and then compare it to the competition. Sorry to say it, but the US counterparts are far better in almost every way. That's why we in the EU mostly copy stuff we see in the US and not the other way around. Of course everyone copies ideas, there's nothing bad about that, but to win you also have to be innovative. I miss that here in the EU tech sector.
  - Aelinsaar 10y ago
    Google and Apple are impressive both as companies, and in terms of many of their products, absolutely. They are not the norm, just the biggest.

marxidad 10y ago

They didn't win because they are the best, unless you mean they are the best at winning for arbitrary reasons, like random market forces.

DominikR 10y ago
It doesn't look random to me when the biggest IT companies all originate from a small area in or near San Francisco. The US government spent a massive amount of money over decades in infrastructure and in government contracts which in combination with the right legal framework (and capitalism) created this dominance.
- scholia 10y ago
  Right, because it's not a level playing field. I could start a company in a small European country for €X but tackling the US market would cost me 10 times that, which I haven't got and can't raise. However, the comparable US company can invade my market not by raising 10x more money but by raising 10% more. Even if you're successful, like Spotify, a big American company can start up years later with an inferior product, like Apple, and probably put you out of business. Spotify money is, by Apple's standards, chump change. And if the American company can't knock you out, then it can just buy you. America's home market size and the availability of capital make it very hard to compete, even if you have the talent. And the fact that SV imports almost all the best overseas talent as well as having its own tremendous talents makes things even harder. It's easier with virtual goods than with physical goods, but look at social networking websites for an illustration of the same problem. Sure, you can be the biggest in France or Germany or Italy or whatever, but Facebook just knocked out all the local successes except Russia and China. The only way to play it is to open a small US office and pretend to be American, so you can get US capital and US media promotion. But if you succeeded that way, just how French (or German, or Italian) would you be in the end?
  - DominikR 10y ago
    > However, the comparable US company can invade my market Again talk about "invasion", I'd suggest you don't be so emotional so we can have a fruitful discussion. Aside from that nobody owns the market. You may feel it is an invasion because the barriers are low to do business as a foreigner, but this goes both ways. I successfully sold products in the US as an EU citizen without having an office there, so it is possible. And there are many tech companies from the EU that do the same on a much larger scale. Our problem is really the legal framework, getting loans for starting businesses, getting investments from private investors (this is getting better though) and bureaucracy. In the US you can fail and rebound from it, in most EU countries your life is destroyed because you'll be burdened with debts till the day you leave this earth. (or you lose all wealth you have accumulated to this point) If we in the tech sector weren't so lucky to be able to start businesses with low capital investment I would have never started one because I don't have the rich parents/family that could help me if things go bad. This is the problem from my perspective that we face here and no amount of protectionism will change that. On the other hand I'm truly amazed what risks people take to start businesses in more capital intensive sectors in the EU. I wouldn't have the stomach to do this, to me these people seem almost insane.
    - scholia 10y ago
      All of which may be true but misses the point. The size of the US market, and the availability of venture capital, means that there is no level playing field, and it's therefore almost impossible for most non-US tech companies to compete. For various reasons, this may not wholly apply to Russian and Chinese companies, for example, but it certainly applies in Europe. There are no European tech companies with the size and power of Google , Facebook, Microsoft, Intel, Apple etc. Indeed, there are no European tech companies with the size and power of BMW, VW, and Fiat etc. Nokia, briefly, was a notable exception. If a non-US company is successful, it frequently gets taken over. Nokia, PayPal, Skype, and Minecraft are examples. > no amount of protectionism will change that. I wasn't suggesting protectionism. I was merely pointing out the facts of life in the tech market. Incidentally, none of this is new: it's been happening for decades. US companies also wiped out the European mainframe, minicomputer and PC companies before we got to the point where they are wiping out the internet companies. From the array that included companies such as Siemens, Nixdorf, ICL, Bull, Olivetti, Norsk Data, Acorn, Sinclair and dozens more, really only Siemens has survived, and that's because of its broad industrial base.

Aelinsaar 10y ago

Do you think that Comcast and Verizon have won because they're the best? The best service providers, or the best at killing competition and bribing politicians?

DominikR 10y ago
This happens in every sector in every country and should be persecuted. But I just can't believe that the Silicon Valley tech sector dominates the West just because they are somehow the best at bribing politicians. I just take a look at Google or Apple products and then compare it to the competition. Sorry to say it, but the US counterparts are far better in almost every way. That's why we in the EU mostly copy stuff we see in the US and not the other way around. Of course everyone copies ideas, there's nothing bad about that, but to win you also have to be innovative. I miss that here in the EU tech sector.
- Aelinsaar 10y ago
  Google and Apple are impressive both as companies, and in terms of many of their products, absolutely. They are not the norm, just the biggest.