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The US government forces American tech companies to spy on users, so US companies are to blame? We still, to this day, don't know the extent to which PRISM and

The US government forces American tech companies to spy on users, so US companies are to blame? We still, to this day, don't know the extent to which PRISM and BULLRUN participation was forced, voluntary, or completely opaque. We have Marissa Meyer claiming USG threatened charges of treason, and we have Google denying involvement full-stop. I doubt if we'll ever know.

bduerst 10y ago
We do have an idea though. Industry experts have said they think that PRISM was a dark fiber hack between data centers (even the name implies it). Most tech companies have closed the exploit by encrypting data over dark fiber.
- nostrademons 10y ago
  You're thinking of MUSCULAR. MUSCULAR was a fiber hack between data centers. (Not really dark; if it was "dark" fiber the lines wouldn't be carrying any data.) That's the one tech companies are really pissed off about, which got them to start encrypting data between DCs. PRISM is FISA. It's the NSA codename for data collection under Section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act. That's why the tech companies had no idea what the press was talking about. When the NSA goes to execute PRISM, they have a lawyer contact the appropriate tech company and say "We have a lawfully-obtained warrant for search terms X, Y, and Z under Section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act, please hand over your logs for those terms", and because it's all done legally, the tech companies have to comply. Once the data is handed over, there is apparently a whole storage & search mechanism within the NSA for handling that data, and that is what PRISM refers to. BULLRUN is the NSA decryption effort, and it involves them systematically inserting backdoors into various encryption algorithms. It operates at a lower level than what most people think of as "American tech"; if there were companies involved, it'd be Cisco and Juniper, although all the evidence I've seen so far indicates that the NSA managed to hide flaws in the algorithms in plain sight, even as they underwent public review.
  - bduerst 10y ago
    Thanks - you're right. I was mixing PRISM with MUSCULAR. Wasn't PRISM still limited to data around high-interest individuals? (i.e. not a blank check to all data) Was BULLRUN what ATT room 641a was involved with?
    - nostrademons 10y ago
      Uncertain; that was my initial understanding as well, but the Wikipedia article on PRISM indicates that certain search terms are fair game as well. Also uncertain about the relationship between BULLRUN and AT&T room 641A. My understanding is that BULLRUN is different, focusing on influencing encryption standards so that the government could break them, but I'm not sure.
      - sievebrain 10y ago
        BULLRUN appears to be an umbrella term for all efforts to crack encryption directly, not just efforts to influence standards. For instance their VPN cracking systems probably fall under BULLRUN. I think it was never entirely clear what PRISM is: the only slides that covered it were vague and were directly contradicted by the testimony of the relevant CEOs.
        nostrademons 10y ago
        It's pretty clear from a couple of the slides: https://nsa.gov1.info/dni/prism-slides/PRISM-tasking%20process.jpg https://nsa.gov1.info/dni/prism-slides/PRISM-tasking%20proce... https://nsa.gov1.info/dni/prism-slides/prism-conclusion.jpg https://nsa.gov1.info/dni/prism-slides/prism-conclusion.jpg Note the presence of FAA Adjudicators and FISA Oversight & Processing in the collection pipeline in the first slide, and the direct reference to "FAA 702 collection = PRISM program providers" in the last. The director of national intelligence also confirmed it in response to the leaks: https://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/191-press-releases-2013/869-dni-statement-on-activities-authorized-under-section-702-of-fisa https://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/191-pr...

bduerst 10y ago

We do have an idea though. Industry experts have said they think that PRISM was a dark fiber hack between data centers (even the name implies it). Most tech companies have closed the exploit by encrypting data over dark fiber.

nostrademons 10y ago
You're thinking of MUSCULAR. MUSCULAR was a fiber hack between data centers. (Not really dark; if it was "dark" fiber the lines wouldn't be carrying any data.) That's the one tech companies are really pissed off about, which got them to start encrypting data between DCs. PRISM is FISA. It's the NSA codename for data collection under Section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act. That's why the tech companies had no idea what the press was talking about. When the NSA goes to execute PRISM, they have a lawyer contact the appropriate tech company and say "We have a lawfully-obtained warrant for search terms X, Y, and Z under Section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act, please hand over your logs for those terms", and because it's all done legally, the tech companies have to comply. Once the data is handed over, there is apparently a whole storage & search mechanism within the NSA for handling that data, and that is what PRISM refers to. BULLRUN is the NSA decryption effort, and it involves them systematically inserting backdoors into various encryption algorithms. It operates at a lower level than what most people think of as "American tech"; if there were companies involved, it'd be Cisco and Juniper, although all the evidence I've seen so far indicates that the NSA managed to hide flaws in the algorithms in plain sight, even as they underwent public review.
- bduerst 10y ago
  Thanks - you're right. I was mixing PRISM with MUSCULAR. Wasn't PRISM still limited to data around high-interest individuals? (i.e. not a blank check to all data) Was BULLRUN what ATT room 641a was involved with?
  - nostrademons 10y ago
    Uncertain; that was my initial understanding as well, but the Wikipedia article on PRISM indicates that certain search terms are fair game as well. Also uncertain about the relationship between BULLRUN and AT&T room 641A. My understanding is that BULLRUN is different, focusing on influencing encryption standards so that the government could break them, but I'm not sure.
    - sievebrain 10y ago
      BULLRUN appears to be an umbrella term for all efforts to crack encryption directly, not just efforts to influence standards. For instance their VPN cracking systems probably fall under BULLRUN. I think it was never entirely clear what PRISM is: the only slides that covered it were vague and were directly contradicted by the testimony of the relevant CEOs.
      - nostrademons 10y ago
        It's pretty clear from a couple of the slides: https://nsa.gov1.info/dni/prism-slides/PRISM-tasking%20process.jpg https://nsa.gov1.info/dni/prism-slides/PRISM-tasking%20proce... https://nsa.gov1.info/dni/prism-slides/prism-conclusion.jpg https://nsa.gov1.info/dni/prism-slides/prism-conclusion.jpg Note the presence of FAA Adjudicators and FISA Oversight & Processing in the collection pipeline in the first slide, and the direct reference to "FAA 702 collection = PRISM program providers" in the last. The director of national intelligence also confirmed it in response to the leaks: https://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/191-press-releases-2013/869-dni-statement-on-activities-authorized-under-section-702-of-fisa https://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/191-pr...