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> She drives about 25 hours a week. In one week in May, she earned $604 for 28 hours of work, she said — a slightly better-than-average week. Uber took $160 for

> She drives about 25 hours a week. In one week in May, she earned $604 for 28 hours of work, she said — a slightly better-than-average week. Uber took $160 for the car directly out of her paycheck, leaving her with $444. So, for 28 hours of work, the driver got a car (with maintenance covered) and a ~$16/hour salary on top. Without the car payment, it's a $21/hour salary. That's apparently a near-average week. I seem to have missed something, because it looks to me like Uber leant her a car that enabled her to do a job that pays better than even the most ambitious minimum wage initiatives. It's pricy, but so were all of her other options with "terrible" credit. Where's the evil here?

tyingq 10y ago
I agree with most of this, but it should be noted that $16/hour as 1099 income is not at all the same thing as $16/hour as a regular W2 employee. A rough equivalent would be about $11/hour. I think that's high still, as there are costs other than maintenance...like gasoline.
- warfangle 10y ago
  Average city driving speed for LA is 26.8 MPH [0], which means she's driving around 750 miles per week. She leased a 2015 Honda Civic, which has a rated fuel economy of 31 MPG. Assuming she gets the rated gas mileage from her civic, she's buying 24 gallons of gasoline per week for 2.39 [1] per, costing her $57. AAA gives an estimated 5.51 cents per mile for maintenance and tires [2], costing her $41. So, take home pay after expenses is $604 - $160 - $57 - $41 = $346, or $12.3/hr. IANAA, so I don't know which of these expenses qualify for deductions when she files. But an annual pay (after expenses) of $17,992 doesn't leave much wiggle room for paying for an accountant, assuming Uber indentured servitude is her only income generating activity. 0. http://infinitemonkeycorps.net/projects/cityspeed/ http://infinitemonkeycorps.net/projects/cityspeed/ 1. http://www.losangelesgasprices.com/ http://www.losangelesgasprices.com/ 2. http://exchange.aaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/2016-YDC-Brochure.pdf http://exchange.aaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/2016-YDC-...
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    This is mostly a good assessment, but the maintenance cost should be reduced - one part of Uber's lending program is covered routine maintenance. Gas at least should be deductible, I don't know whether the car payments can be counted in whole or in part. The overall point is well taken, though. There are several hits to real income for Uber drivers that aren't shared by other types of low-wage worker, and while "set your own hours" offers more upside than a normal part-time job, it's limited by how many high-demand hours there are in a week. Rather than extra overtime pay, I imagine hours past her current 28 would give steadily diminishing returns.
    - warfangle 10y ago
      I don't think it matters if the car payments can be counted or not. But, according to [0] (I'm not sure how accurate/reputable it is; again, IANAA), the deductible portion of $60452=$31,408 is only $2,218.90. Gas at $5752=$2,964 already extends past that cap. Assuming her income is taxed before the lease payments are made, and hits her full deductible, she's paying total taxes of $4,437.81 So, net after-tax, after-expense income - I didn't realize that about routine maintenance - is $604-$160-($57 - ($2,218.90/52)) - ($4,437.81/52) = $344 / wk, or $13/hr. Compared to working multiple inflexibly-houred minimum wage jobs, it's definitely better. But in no way is it lucrative, or even lower middle class.
      - pc86 10y ago
        In most of the country $13/hr is indeed lower middle class.
        evilduck 10y ago
        In places where $13/hr is a viable lower middle class wage, Uber is also generally not available as a job.
        untog 10y ago
        We are specifically talking about Seattle here, though. All the other variables would also be different in different parts of the country.
- cpncrunch 10y ago
  >it should be noted that $16/hour as 1099 income is not at all the same thing as $16/hour as a regular W2 employee. A rough equivalent would be about $11/hour. Not quite. You only take off some of the employment taxes, not the income taxes (which you would still have to pay as a regular W2 employee). It will likely only be about a dollar an hour or so. However the advantage of being self-employed is that you can deduct expenses such as fuel. (Which brings up another point...fuel will need to be considered when calculating net income).
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > However the advantage of being self-employed is that you can deduct expenses such as fuel. No, its not. If those expenses aren't reimbursed by your employer (which often they are), you can deduct them as a W-2 employee, as well, so there is no benefit on that point to being a 1099 contractor vs. a W-2 employee.
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      You can only deduct those expenses as a W-2 employee if you itemize vs taking the standard deduction. Most people don't itemize.
  - tyingq 10y ago
    >Not quite. You only take off some of the employment taxes, not the income taxes My quick+dirty calculation accounted for just the net added self-employment taxes, plus other differences like state unemployment, employer's share of health insurance, sick days, etc.
Someone1234 10y ago
How did you get $16/hour? How much is gas in that calculation?
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  No gas, it's just hourly after the car lease. Another commenter arrives at ~$12/hour after expenses, but depending on how good the routine maintenance coverage Uber offers is something like $13-14/hour looks about right (pending assorted tax complexities).
mslate 10y ago
What about gas? What about fees from traffic infractions? What about accidents? While accidents may be low probability, they present a very high expected cost and the areas in which ride-sharing is popular probably have higher rates of accidents. I'm just saying that this is probably not the full arithmetic for arriving at an ~$16/hr wage.
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  It's not, and the rest of this thread dives into it a bunch. Gas and tire wear implies a ~$2/hour hit, roughly. Tickets are presumably negligible for long-term drivers? Most people get <1 ticket per year, even with long commutes, and I assume that if you're getting ticketed very often with passengers Uber will drop you as a driver, the cutoff is low for that. Accidents are hard to call - their 'cost' is basically whatever you pay in insurance (plus some adjustment for future insurance hikes if you file a claim). I don't know how the Uber-insurance thing shook out, so I can't speak to that at all. The $16/hour wage is now at something like $12/hour (very roughly), but that's neglecting the benefits of having a car (I'm assuming most drivers with Xchange wouldn't have cars if they worked elsewhere, otherwise raise the effective wage by $5/hour). But of course, that's part-time work. It's voluntarily part-time, but you can't scale up Uber driving arbitrarily - presumably you're already working the highest cash-flow hours and will see decreased hourly wages as you add less-profitable driving time. So I'll stand by a claim that the money is pretty good, at least in <$10/hour minimum wage markets, but it's locked into a no-benefits, part-time status that prevents it from being an especially good living.
  - russell_h 10y ago
    I get the sense that Uber drivers are often incentivized to do things that increase their chances of getting a ticket. Then a full time driver spends a lot more time driving than your average person.
    - Bartweiss 10y ago
      I agree that they are. If you're about to miss your exit with a passenger, you might take a risky swerve across a lane to avoid getting a bad rating. Having said that, I still don't think there are lots of Uber drivers racking up tickets, because that gets you fired from your job. So it's a problem for employment, but not a salary factor - by luck or skill, any given Uber driver will still have ~0 tickets.
ob 10y ago
> In one week in May, she earned $604 for 28 hours of work I wonder if they count "hours of work" as hours with a passenger or as total hours driven. If the latter then she actually "worked" longer hours.
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  From the text of the article, I believe its hours driven. The whole thing was a bit fast and loose with definitions, but I don't think that one is wrong. So this is an actual hourly wage, but that doesn't mean that a move up to full time at the same wage is possible.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > I wonder if they count "hours of work" as hours with a passenger or as total hours driven. If the latter then she actually "worked" longer hours. Even if its "hours with a passenger" its still too short; it really should be "hours in which other activities were foregone so that she could be logged in and ready to accept passengers".
ebbv 10y ago
$160 for a week of using a car is insane especially when Uber is already making money off the work she is doing with the car. $16/hr with no insurance, no benefits, no nothing is NOT good pay. Yeah it's more than minimum wage but so what? Need I remind you she's driving, literally putting her life at risk at this job? You really believe $16/hr for driving people around is good/reasonable/generous pay? Even $21/hr? Give me a break.
- askldfhjkasfhd 10y ago
  While I don't think the actual number is $16/hr per the calculations in the rest of this thread, I do feel strongly that $16-21 / hr for a largely unskilled labor force is perfectly reasonable. (Not for SF, but SF isn't the majority of the country.) Add in the flexibility of the hours (most drivers I query list that as their #1 thing they like most), and the lifestyle provided seems very reasonable. It's worth remembering that a lot of these folks are generally service workers. In their other work, they get paid shit (usually close to min. wage), they get treated like shit, and they are at the mercy of the schedule maker. That last point cannot be underemphasized: little fiefs of power bestowed upon the scheduler make for really ugly fast food office politics.

tyingq 10y ago

I agree with most of this, but it should be noted that $16/hour as 1099 income is not at all the same thing as $16/hour as a regular W2 employee. A rough equivalent would be about $11/hour. I think that's high still, as there are costs other than maintenance...like gasoline.

warfangle 10y ago
Average city driving speed for LA is 26.8 MPH [0], which means she's driving around 750 miles per week. She leased a 2015 Honda Civic, which has a rated fuel economy of 31 MPG. Assuming she gets the rated gas mileage from her civic, she's buying 24 gallons of gasoline per week for 2.39 [1] per, costing her $57. AAA gives an estimated 5.51 cents per mile for maintenance and tires [2], costing her $41. So, take home pay after expenses is $604 - $160 - $57 - $41 = $346, or $12.3/hr. IANAA, so I don't know which of these expenses qualify for deductions when she files. But an annual pay (after expenses) of $17,992 doesn't leave much wiggle room for paying for an accountant, assuming Uber indentured servitude is her only income generating activity. 0. http://infinitemonkeycorps.net/projects/cityspeed/ http://infinitemonkeycorps.net/projects/cityspeed/ 1. http://www.losangelesgasprices.com/ http://www.losangelesgasprices.com/ 2. http://exchange.aaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/2016-YDC-Brochure.pdf http://exchange.aaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/2016-YDC-...
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  This is mostly a good assessment, but the maintenance cost should be reduced - one part of Uber's lending program is covered routine maintenance. Gas at least should be deductible, I don't know whether the car payments can be counted in whole or in part. The overall point is well taken, though. There are several hits to real income for Uber drivers that aren't shared by other types of low-wage worker, and while "set your own hours" offers more upside than a normal part-time job, it's limited by how many high-demand hours there are in a week. Rather than extra overtime pay, I imagine hours past her current 28 would give steadily diminishing returns.
  - warfangle 10y ago
    I don't think it matters if the car payments can be counted or not. But, according to [0] (I'm not sure how accurate/reputable it is; again, IANAA), the deductible portion of $60452=$31,408 is only $2,218.90. Gas at $5752=$2,964 already extends past that cap. Assuming her income is taxed before the lease payments are made, and hits her full deductible, she's paying total taxes of $4,437.81 So, net after-tax, after-expense income - I didn't realize that about routine maintenance - is $604-$160-($57 - ($2,218.90/52)) - ($4,437.81/52) = $344 / wk, or $13/hr. Compared to working multiple inflexibly-houred minimum wage jobs, it's definitely better. But in no way is it lucrative, or even lower middle class.
    - pc86 10y ago
      In most of the country $13/hr is indeed lower middle class.
      - evilduck 10y ago
        In places where $13/hr is a viable lower middle class wage, Uber is also generally not available as a job.
      - untog 10y ago
        We are specifically talking about Seattle here, though. All the other variables would also be different in different parts of the country.
cpncrunch 10y ago
>it should be noted that $16/hour as 1099 income is not at all the same thing as $16/hour as a regular W2 employee. A rough equivalent would be about $11/hour. Not quite. You only take off some of the employment taxes, not the income taxes (which you would still have to pay as a regular W2 employee). It will likely only be about a dollar an hour or so. However the advantage of being self-employed is that you can deduct expenses such as fuel. (Which brings up another point...fuel will need to be considered when calculating net income).
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > However the advantage of being self-employed is that you can deduct expenses such as fuel. No, its not. If those expenses aren't reimbursed by your employer (which often they are), you can deduct them as a W-2 employee, as well, so there is no benefit on that point to being a 1099 contractor vs. a W-2 employee.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    You can only deduct those expenses as a W-2 employee if you itemize vs taking the standard deduction. Most people don't itemize.
- tyingq 10y ago
  >Not quite. You only take off some of the employment taxes, not the income taxes My quick+dirty calculation accounted for just the net added self-employment taxes, plus other differences like state unemployment, employer's share of health insurance, sick days, etc.

Someone1234 10y ago

How did you get $16/hour? How much is gas in that calculation?

Bartweiss 10y ago
No gas, it's just hourly after the car lease. Another commenter arrives at ~$12/hour after expenses, but depending on how good the routine maintenance coverage Uber offers is something like $13-14/hour looks about right (pending assorted tax complexities).

mslate 10y ago

What about gas? What about fees from traffic infractions? What about accidents? While accidents may be low probability, they present a very high expected cost and the areas in which ride-sharing is popular probably have higher rates of accidents. I'm just saying that this is probably not the full arithmetic for arriving at an ~$16/hr wage.

Bartweiss 10y ago
It's not, and the rest of this thread dives into it a bunch. Gas and tire wear implies a ~$2/hour hit, roughly. Tickets are presumably negligible for long-term drivers? Most people get <1 ticket per year, even with long commutes, and I assume that if you're getting ticketed very often with passengers Uber will drop you as a driver, the cutoff is low for that. Accidents are hard to call - their 'cost' is basically whatever you pay in insurance (plus some adjustment for future insurance hikes if you file a claim). I don't know how the Uber-insurance thing shook out, so I can't speak to that at all. The $16/hour wage is now at something like $12/hour (very roughly), but that's neglecting the benefits of having a car (I'm assuming most drivers with Xchange wouldn't have cars if they worked elsewhere, otherwise raise the effective wage by $5/hour). But of course, that's part-time work. It's voluntarily part-time, but you can't scale up Uber driving arbitrarily - presumably you're already working the highest cash-flow hours and will see decreased hourly wages as you add less-profitable driving time. So I'll stand by a claim that the money is pretty good, at least in <$10/hour minimum wage markets, but it's locked into a no-benefits, part-time status that prevents it from being an especially good living.
- russell_h 10y ago
  I get the sense that Uber drivers are often incentivized to do things that increase their chances of getting a ticket. Then a full time driver spends a lot more time driving than your average person.
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    I agree that they are. If you're about to miss your exit with a passenger, you might take a risky swerve across a lane to avoid getting a bad rating. Having said that, I still don't think there are lots of Uber drivers racking up tickets, because that gets you fired from your job. So it's a problem for employment, but not a salary factor - by luck or skill, any given Uber driver will still have ~0 tickets.

ob 10y ago

> In one week in May, she earned $604 for 28 hours of work I wonder if they count "hours of work" as hours with a passenger or as total hours driven. If the latter then she actually "worked" longer hours.

Bartweiss 10y ago
From the text of the article, I believe its hours driven. The whole thing was a bit fast and loose with definitions, but I don't think that one is wrong. So this is an actual hourly wage, but that doesn't mean that a move up to full time at the same wage is possible.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> I wonder if they count "hours of work" as hours with a passenger or as total hours driven. If the latter then she actually "worked" longer hours. Even if its "hours with a passenger" its still too short; it really should be "hours in which other activities were foregone so that she could be logged in and ready to accept passengers".

ebbv 10y ago

$160 for a week of using a car is insane especially when Uber is already making money off the work she is doing with the car. $16/hr with no insurance, no benefits, no nothing is NOT good pay. Yeah it's more than minimum wage but so what? Need I remind you she's driving, literally putting her life at risk at this job? You really believe $16/hr for driving people around is good/reasonable/generous pay? Even $21/hr? Give me a break.

askldfhjkasfhd 10y ago
While I don't think the actual number is $16/hr per the calculations in the rest of this thread, I do feel strongly that $16-21 / hr for a largely unskilled labor force is perfectly reasonable. (Not for SF, but SF isn't the majority of the country.) Add in the flexibility of the hours (most drivers I query list that as their #1 thing they like most), and the lifestyle provided seems very reasonable. It's worth remembering that a lot of these folks are generally service workers. In their other work, they get paid shit (usually close to min. wage), they get treated like shit, and they are at the mercy of the schedule maker. That last point cannot be underemphasized: little fiefs of power bestowed upon the scheduler make for really ugly fast food office politics.