5 ms·

It would be interesting to hear a bit more background for this forking. What does Nextcloud try to achieve that was not possible within the ownCloud project? Wa

It would be interesting to hear a bit more background for this forking. What does Nextcloud try to achieve that was not possible within the ownCloud project? Was this a clash of personalities as one of the ownCloud founders is among those jumping the ship?

MorrisJobke 10y ago
http://karlitschek.de/2016/06/nextcloud/ http://karlitschek.de/2016/06/nextcloud/ sheds some light into this.
LukasReschke 10y ago
We can't talk about this in detail yet but http://blog.jospoortvliet.com/2016/06/nextcloud-is-replacing-owncloud.html http://blog.jospoortvliet.com/2016/06/nextcloud-is-replacing... has some more information on what's upcoming. If you can understand German a very good in-depth research article is at http://www.golem.de/news/community-fork-und-neues-unternehmen-nextcloud-ist-der-neustart-fuer-owncloud-1606-121243.html http://www.golem.de/news/community-fork-und-neues-unternehme... Disclaimer: I am one of those folks that left ownCloud for Nextcloud.
- jwildeboer 10y ago
  I sincerely hope that Nextcould embraces the C4 contract for community building. That would be IMHO the best way to create and grow a community that is truly open and will survive for a long time. http://rfc.zeromq.org/spec:42/C4/ http://rfc.zeromq.org/spec:42/C4/
  - LukasReschke 10y ago
    Fantastic idea! We have started a public discussion about this at https://help.nextcloud.com/t/should-we-adopt-c4/113/1 https://help.nextcloud.com/t/should-we-adopt-c4/113/1. You're more than welcome to join it as well :-)
  - Karunamon 10y ago
    This seems like a great codified set of best practices - but why the prohibition on topic branches? The project SHALL NOT use topic branches for any reason. This is a main tenet of git-flow, and it's hardly uncommon.
    - jwildeboer 10y ago
      The direct explanation is at http://hintjens.com/blog:117#toc47 http://hintjens.com/blog:117#toc47 but you should read the whole post. Or even better the book Social Architecture.
      - Karunamon 10y ago
        Excellent link, and thanks, but the branching thing is hardly touched on, other than a quick small paragraph that reads like "it's too hard for people to learn".
unlinker 10y ago
http://blog.jospoortvliet.com/2016/06/nextcloud-is-replacing-owncloud.html http://blog.jospoortvliet.com/2016/06/nextcloud-is-replacing... >'why' is the question everybody has and I hope you understand I don't want to talk too much about that Grow up, maybe, Jos? This sounds to me like the usual and continuous splits inside OSS communities, but Jesus, I do miss the days when you had a detailed explanation as soon as somebody leaked the IRC logs!
- mattmanser 10y ago
  He's addressed it and said he doesn't want to talk about it. I don't think it's Jos who needs to grow up. If you want to watch trainwrecks go read the celeb gossip mags.
  - adrianlmm 10y ago
    If it is an open source Project developed in the open, I believe we deserve to know why.
- LionessLover 10y ago
  You don't talk negative about other people, especially if you worked with them for a long time, and especially when it's not a matter of "they hid bodies of people they killed" but mere differences in opinion about how to do business. So no, this dirty laundry should not be aired in public.
  - RubyPinch 10y ago
    On the other hand, that specific thing is the entire reason for the fork existing, its drive and motivation. It could be anything. "We feel own-cloud isn't libre enough", "We don't feel this direction is profitable", "We feel owncloud was too open", "I personally disliked one of the people there any wanted to sink the ship", etc etc (note: I am being a bit tongue in cheek here) If its a reason I agree with, then migration makes sense, if its a reason I don't agree with, then obviously migration might not be a good idea. But no one knows what the driving motivation of nextcloud is! So its a bit more worry-causing then reassuring
gpvos 10y ago
Roughly translated from http://www.golem.de/news/community-fork-und-neues-unternehmen-nextcloud-ist-der-neustart-fuer-owncloud-1606-121243.html http://www.golem.de/news/community-fork-und-neues-unternehme... : Jos Poortvliet, Owncloud's former community manager and now responsible for communication at Nextcloud calls it a "new start". Karlitschek and Poortvliet give as reason for the new founding "structural problems" and some "economic decisions" of the Owncloud company, that caused great dissatisfaction. They do not want to give further details. Nextcloud's business model should be focused on long-term viability and sustainability. Apparently the Owncloud company could not offer that in a satisfactory measure.
- NetStrikeForce 10y ago
  It sounds like they didn't have a viable business model, so they're starting a new company to get rid of any ties the old had. Maybe there's VC money coming in and this is a requirement to be able to be sold later... Who knows? :)
  - fbartels 10y ago
    you mean even more vc, than there was already in the old inc.?
    - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
      Apparently not. I stand corrected! :)
  - evook 10y ago
    Based on what I heared from someone involved, it's actually the opposite. They don't want VC money to come in and loose theirs influence in the decision making.
    - majewsky 10y ago
      I'd guess the same. The new company is a GmbH (German version of a "Ltd." AFAIK), not a stock corporation. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesellschaft_mit_beschränkter_Haftung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesellschaft_mit_beschränkter_...
gregmac 10y ago
There's some telling comments in a thread on their forums[1]: > So, the main thing we wanted is a sustainable company. A company that doesn't go away soon, that isn't forced by a bad funding situation to make stupid decisions, or to limit itself and not work with partners as much as possible. > A similar fork? Well, if Frank and the rest of the engineers lose trust in Nextcloud, we won't have to fork as this time, we will make sure the company won't fully control trademark and code. No more CLA. Trademark in a foundation. So this is the first and last time a fork happens [1] https://help.nextcloud.com/t/will-nextcloud-stay/90/4 https://help.nextcloud.com/t/will-nextcloud-stay/90/4

MorrisJobke 10y ago

http://karlitschek.de/2016/06/nextcloud/ http://karlitschek.de/2016/06/nextcloud/ sheds some light into this.

LukasReschke 10y ago

We can't talk about this in detail yet but http://blog.jospoortvliet.com/2016/06/nextcloud-is-replacing-owncloud.html http://blog.jospoortvliet.com/2016/06/nextcloud-is-replacing... has some more information on what's upcoming. If you can understand German a very good in-depth research article is at http://www.golem.de/news/community-fork-und-neues-unternehmen-nextcloud-ist-der-neustart-fuer-owncloud-1606-121243.html http://www.golem.de/news/community-fork-und-neues-unternehme... Disclaimer: I am one of those folks that left ownCloud for Nextcloud.

jwildeboer 10y ago
I sincerely hope that Nextcould embraces the C4 contract for community building. That would be IMHO the best way to create and grow a community that is truly open and will survive for a long time. http://rfc.zeromq.org/spec:42/C4/ http://rfc.zeromq.org/spec:42/C4/
- LukasReschke 10y ago
  Fantastic idea! We have started a public discussion about this at https://help.nextcloud.com/t/should-we-adopt-c4/113/1 https://help.nextcloud.com/t/should-we-adopt-c4/113/1. You're more than welcome to join it as well :-)
- Karunamon 10y ago
  This seems like a great codified set of best practices - but why the prohibition on topic branches? The project SHALL NOT use topic branches for any reason. This is a main tenet of git-flow, and it's hardly uncommon.
  - jwildeboer 10y ago
    The direct explanation is at http://hintjens.com/blog:117#toc47 http://hintjens.com/blog:117#toc47 but you should read the whole post. Or even better the book Social Architecture.
    - Karunamon 10y ago
      Excellent link, and thanks, but the branching thing is hardly touched on, other than a quick small paragraph that reads like "it's too hard for people to learn".

unlinker 10y ago

http://blog.jospoortvliet.com/2016/06/nextcloud-is-replacing-owncloud.html http://blog.jospoortvliet.com/2016/06/nextcloud-is-replacing... >'why' is the question everybody has and I hope you understand I don't want to talk too much about that Grow up, maybe, Jos? This sounds to me like the usual and continuous splits inside OSS communities, but Jesus, I do miss the days when you had a detailed explanation as soon as somebody leaked the IRC logs!

mattmanser 10y ago
He's addressed it and said he doesn't want to talk about it. I don't think it's Jos who needs to grow up. If you want to watch trainwrecks go read the celeb gossip mags.
- adrianlmm 10y ago
  If it is an open source Project developed in the open, I believe we deserve to know why.
LionessLover 10y ago
You don't talk negative about other people, especially if you worked with them for a long time, and especially when it's not a matter of "they hid bodies of people they killed" but mere differences in opinion about how to do business. So no, this dirty laundry should not be aired in public.
- RubyPinch 10y ago
  On the other hand, that specific thing is the entire reason for the fork existing, its drive and motivation. It could be anything. "We feel own-cloud isn't libre enough", "We don't feel this direction is profitable", "We feel owncloud was too open", "I personally disliked one of the people there any wanted to sink the ship", etc etc (note: I am being a bit tongue in cheek here) If its a reason I agree with, then migration makes sense, if its a reason I don't agree with, then obviously migration might not be a good idea. But no one knows what the driving motivation of nextcloud is! So its a bit more worry-causing then reassuring

gpvos 10y ago

Roughly translated from http://www.golem.de/news/community-fork-und-neues-unternehmen-nextcloud-ist-der-neustart-fuer-owncloud-1606-121243.html http://www.golem.de/news/community-fork-und-neues-unternehme... : Jos Poortvliet, Owncloud's former community manager and now responsible for communication at Nextcloud calls it a "new start". Karlitschek and Poortvliet give as reason for the new founding "structural problems" and some "economic decisions" of the Owncloud company, that caused great dissatisfaction. They do not want to give further details. Nextcloud's business model should be focused on long-term viability and sustainability. Apparently the Owncloud company could not offer that in a satisfactory measure.

NetStrikeForce 10y ago
It sounds like they didn't have a viable business model, so they're starting a new company to get rid of any ties the old had. Maybe there's VC money coming in and this is a requirement to be able to be sold later... Who knows? :)
- fbartels 10y ago
  you mean even more vc, than there was already in the old inc.?
  - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
    Apparently not. I stand corrected! :)
- evook 10y ago
  Based on what I heared from someone involved, it's actually the opposite. They don't want VC money to come in and loose theirs influence in the decision making.
  - majewsky 10y ago
    I'd guess the same. The new company is a GmbH (German version of a "Ltd." AFAIK), not a stock corporation. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesellschaft_mit_beschränkter_Haftung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesellschaft_mit_beschränkter_...

gregmac 10y ago

There's some telling comments in a thread on their forums[1]: > So, the main thing we wanted is a sustainable company. A company that doesn't go away soon, that isn't forced by a bad funding situation to make stupid decisions, or to limit itself and not work with partners as much as possible. > A similar fork? Well, if Frank and the rest of the engineers lose trust in Nextcloud, we won't have to fork as this time, we will make sure the company won't fully control trademark and code. No more CLA. Trademark in a foundation. So this is the first and last time a fork happens [1] https://help.nextcloud.com/t/will-nextcloud-stay/90/4 https://help.nextcloud.com/t/will-nextcloud-stay/90/4