4 ms·

Anyone can say they aren't an outspoken advocate for slavery. Take a look at this http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/why-carlyle-matters.ht

by gjm11 10y ago

Anyone can say they aren't an outspoken advocate for slavery. Take a look at this http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/why-carlyle-matters.html http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/why-c... and see whether you find it plausible to say that the author is not an outspoken advocate for slavery.

justadude1 10y ago
I have read it and I don't think the author is an outspoken advocate of slavery. The passage most frequently cited as evidence of this charge is: Thus, Spaniards and Englishmen in the Americas in the 17th and earlier centuries, whose sense of political correctness was negligible, found that Africans tended to make good slaves and Indians did not. This broad pattern of observation is most parsimoniously explained by genetic differences. A charitable reading of this, in my mind, goes: Some slavers had an opinion about who made good slaves and who didn't. If one wanted to rationalize a basis for that opinion, which historically existed, the easiest/laziest answer would be genetic traits common to the populations in question Check the definition of "parsimonious" and assume the author used it on purpose.
- blacksmith_tb 10y ago
  It's a very strange interpretation, especially given that there is a strong body of historical sociology on exactly this question. I'm thinking primarily of Orlando Patterson's _Slavery and Social Death_ - which would suggest that while Native Americans could potentially escape back to their people, African slaves had a much harder time alone, which was precisely the slavers' plan.
  - justadude1 10y ago
    No doubt you are right. I'm sure the slavers had all sorts of tactics, and opinions about both their tactics and the enslaved, which were wrong. The author seems to be positing the "easiest" explanation for why a particular opinion took hold among the slavers. Personally, my parsimonious explanation would be groupthink/received wisdom. Which, if it had to have a "legit" origin, was probably a multitude of factors such as you describe. But, I'm not the author, and was just trying to explain why I don't think that passage is the heinous smoking gun that so many people think it is.
    - blacksmith_tb 10y ago
      Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that your gloss was a strange interpretation (I'd say your summary is reasonable), just the original was.
- gjm11 10y ago
  I don't think the case for Moldbug-as-pro-slavery based on that article rests on picking two sentences from it. Here are a few more. Fairly early on, he argues for a more modest proposition: "A society is richer if each individual in it has the right to bind her future actions by agreed obligations, in return for which others may exchange other consideration. [...] we are almost all the way to Carlyle on slavery. We have not agreed that a man can be born a slave, but we agree that he can sell himself into slavery. That is: he can sign a contract with a master in which the slave agrees unconditionally to obey and work for the master, and the master agrees unconditionally to protect and support the slave." OK, but that's only voluntary slavery. What next? "It is only a short step from seeing the State as an enforcer of voluntary and binding obligations, to an enforcer of involuntary and arbitrary obligations. No society can possibly exist without uncontracted obligations." He goes on to give (not being allowed to trespass on) inherited property and (the obligations that come with) family relationships as examples of uncontracted obligations. OK, so Moldbug is in favour of voluntary slavery and thinks that sometimes it's good for the state to enforce involuntarily acquired obligations. We're still not all the way to actual slavery, of course; it depends on what sort of involuntarily acquired obligations the state should be enforcing. "Indeed, the definition of family in most times and places has included slaves. [...] The relationship of master and slave is a natural human relationship: that of patron and client." So now he tells us that slavery is natural and suggests (though he doesn't exactly say it) we should think of it as an aspect of family. He goes on to discuss slavery (being bound to one person), serfdom (being bound to a patch of land and its owners), and ordinary government (being bound to a much larger patch of land and its owners -- it seems to me like there are some super-important differences between serfdom and citizenship, but never mind), and concludes from how widespread these systems are: "This is a pretty good clue that this structure is one to which humans are biologically adapted." OK, so he says slavery is natural and humans are biologically adapted to it. Now what? "Not all humans are born the same, of course, and the innate character and intelligence of some is more suited to mastery than slavery. For others, it is more suited to slavery." (It is interesting to put this alongside his protestations that when he says black people are less intelligent than white people, of course he isn't at all making any sort of value judgement or saying that white people are better, dear me no.) OK. So he says slavery is natural, humans are biologically adapted to it, and some people's inborn characteristics make them natural slaves. What next? "These characteristics can be expected to group differently in human populations of different origins. [...] Africans tended to make good slaves and Indians did not. This broad pattern of observation is most parsimoniously explained by genetic differences." So now we see the passage you quoted in its context. He says: Slavery is natural, humans are biologically adapted to it, some people's inborn characteristics make them natural slaves, and these characteristics are distributed differently in different populations; for instance, at least a few hundred years ago, Africans made good slaves, and this is probably for genetic reasons. (But oh deary deary me no, when he says there are statistical differences in certain psychological characteristics between races, he doesn't mean any sort of value judgement by it. Only that some races are naturally suited to slavery and others to mastery, that's all. Who could possibly object to that?) "Conversely, the subject-government relationship easily becomes dysfunctional for clients who are natural slaves, ie, are not capable of guiding themselves to live in a human and humane manner. [...] If all long-term welfare cases were transferred from Washington to the authority of genuine, truly charitable nonprofits, for example, their new human supervisors could intervene on a personal, discretionary basis to compel them to get their acts together. This would be a step toward humanity in our society - and also a step toward slavery." So: he says slavery is natural, some people are natural slaves, those people won't flourish as free citizens; "all long-term welfare cases" are in this category; they should become, in effect, slaves -- for their own good, of course! -- and this would be an improvement. (But no, of course he isn't an outspoken advocate of slavery. How could anyone think such a thing?)
ZenoArrow 10y ago
I have just taken a look at the blog post you linked to. If you've read that and come to the conclusion that the author is a racist, I can explain what you've missed in one word: intent. The author is exploring ideas. The early parts of the blog post set this exploratory tone quite clearly by framing Carlyle not as someone with absolute moral authority, but as an original thinker, a counterbalance to his time and our time. By exploring Carlyle's ideas the idea is to examine commonly held assumptions. It's an intellectual exercise, and a healthy one at that. As for the 'racist' comments, I don't think they're racist. The 'racist' argument being made can be summarised as... 'The idea that genetic diversity is equally balanced across all races has not been proven, it's an assumption made to further a political cause. However, even if there are genetic traits more closely associated with one race over the others, it does not make those other races inferior. This line of reasoning exposes another form of oppression, one based on intellect rather than genetics, where the right to rule over others is determined by perceived intellectual superiority.' To me, that's not racist. I do believe there are genetic dispositions amongst people of different backgrounds. For example, look at average height. If I go to Asia or South America and stand next to people I meet there, I would tend to be taller. Do I think I'm a better person than them because I'm taller? Fuck no. Can you appreciate this point of view?
- gjm11 10y ago
  I didn't say anything about racism. I said that that blog post seems like sufficient grounds to call the author an "outspoken advocate of slavery" even if when that becomes inconvenient for him he says he isn't one. And yes, he frames what he says as an exploration of Carlyle's ideas, but he's not just saying "Carlyle said this; isn't that interesting"; he's presenting his own opinions too. As for whether believing that white people are (statistically, on balance) cleverer than black people makes you a "racist" -- which, again, was not what I was referring to above: it's really a question about the definition of "racist", and disputes over definitions tend to be unfruitful. For what it's worth, I would not call anyone a racist merely for believing that proposition.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    > "he's not just saying "Carlyle said this; isn't that interesting"" From what I saw, that's exactly what I think he's saying, perhaps I missed something you saw, perhaps I didn't. It seems the conversation has pretty much run its course now, so shall we agree to disagree?

by gjm11 10y ago

justadude1 10y ago

I have read it and I don't think the author is an outspoken advocate of slavery. The passage most frequently cited as evidence of this charge is: Thus, Spaniards and Englishmen in the Americas in the 17th and earlier centuries, whose sense of political correctness was negligible, found that Africans tended to make good slaves and Indians did not. This broad pattern of observation is most parsimoniously explained by genetic differences. A charitable reading of this, in my mind, goes: Some slavers had an opinion about who made good slaves and who didn't. If one wanted to rationalize a basis for that opinion, which historically existed, the easiest/laziest answer would be genetic traits common to the populations in question Check the definition of "parsimonious" and assume the author used it on purpose.

blacksmith_tb 10y ago
It's a very strange interpretation, especially given that there is a strong body of historical sociology on exactly this question. I'm thinking primarily of Orlando Patterson's _Slavery and Social Death_ - which would suggest that while Native Americans could potentially escape back to their people, African slaves had a much harder time alone, which was precisely the slavers' plan.
- justadude1 10y ago
  No doubt you are right. I'm sure the slavers had all sorts of tactics, and opinions about both their tactics and the enslaved, which were wrong. The author seems to be positing the "easiest" explanation for why a particular opinion took hold among the slavers. Personally, my parsimonious explanation would be groupthink/received wisdom. Which, if it had to have a "legit" origin, was probably a multitude of factors such as you describe. But, I'm not the author, and was just trying to explain why I don't think that passage is the heinous smoking gun that so many people think it is.
  - blacksmith_tb 10y ago
    Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that your gloss was a strange interpretation (I'd say your summary is reasonable), just the original was.
gjm11 10y ago
I don't think the case for Moldbug-as-pro-slavery based on that article rests on picking two sentences from it. Here are a few more. Fairly early on, he argues for a more modest proposition: "A society is richer if each individual in it has the right to bind her future actions by agreed obligations, in return for which others may exchange other consideration. [...] we are almost all the way to Carlyle on slavery. We have not agreed that a man can be born a slave, but we agree that he can sell himself into slavery. That is: he can sign a contract with a master in which the slave agrees unconditionally to obey and work for the master, and the master agrees unconditionally to protect and support the slave." OK, but that's only voluntary slavery. What next? "It is only a short step from seeing the State as an enforcer of voluntary and binding obligations, to an enforcer of involuntary and arbitrary obligations. No society can possibly exist without uncontracted obligations." He goes on to give (not being allowed to trespass on) inherited property and (the obligations that come with) family relationships as examples of uncontracted obligations. OK, so Moldbug is in favour of voluntary slavery and thinks that sometimes it's good for the state to enforce involuntarily acquired obligations. We're still not all the way to actual slavery, of course; it depends on what sort of involuntarily acquired obligations the state should be enforcing. "Indeed, the definition of family in most times and places has included slaves. [...] The relationship of master and slave is a natural human relationship: that of patron and client." So now he tells us that slavery is natural and suggests (though he doesn't exactly say it) we should think of it as an aspect of family. He goes on to discuss slavery (being bound to one person), serfdom (being bound to a patch of land and its owners), and ordinary government (being bound to a much larger patch of land and its owners -- it seems to me like there are some super-important differences between serfdom and citizenship, but never mind), and concludes from how widespread these systems are: "This is a pretty good clue that this structure is one to which humans are biologically adapted." OK, so he says slavery is natural and humans are biologically adapted to it. Now what? "Not all humans are born the same, of course, and the innate character and intelligence of some is more suited to mastery than slavery. For others, it is more suited to slavery." (It is interesting to put this alongside his protestations that when he says black people are less intelligent than white people, of course he isn't at all making any sort of value judgement or saying that white people are better, dear me no.) OK. So he says slavery is natural, humans are biologically adapted to it, and some people's inborn characteristics make them natural slaves. What next? "These characteristics can be expected to group differently in human populations of different origins. [...] Africans tended to make good slaves and Indians did not. This broad pattern of observation is most parsimoniously explained by genetic differences." So now we see the passage you quoted in its context. He says: Slavery is natural, humans are biologically adapted to it, some people's inborn characteristics make them natural slaves, and these characteristics are distributed differently in different populations; for instance, at least a few hundred years ago, Africans made good slaves, and this is probably for genetic reasons. (But oh deary deary me no, when he says there are statistical differences in certain psychological characteristics between races, he doesn't mean any sort of value judgement by it. Only that some races are naturally suited to slavery and others to mastery, that's all. Who could possibly object to that?) "Conversely, the subject-government relationship easily becomes dysfunctional for clients who are natural slaves, ie, are not capable of guiding themselves to live in a human and humane manner. [...] If all long-term welfare cases were transferred from Washington to the authority of genuine, truly charitable nonprofits, for example, their new human supervisors could intervene on a personal, discretionary basis to compel them to get their acts together. This would be a step toward humanity in our society - and also a step toward slavery." So: he says slavery is natural, some people are natural slaves, those people won't flourish as free citizens; "all long-term welfare cases" are in this category; they should become, in effect, slaves -- for their own good, of course! -- and this would be an improvement. (But no, of course he isn't an outspoken advocate of slavery. How could anyone think such a thing?)

ZenoArrow 10y ago

I have just taken a look at the blog post you linked to. If you've read that and come to the conclusion that the author is a racist, I can explain what you've missed in one word: intent. The author is exploring ideas. The early parts of the blog post set this exploratory tone quite clearly by framing Carlyle not as someone with absolute moral authority, but as an original thinker, a counterbalance to his time and our time. By exploring Carlyle's ideas the idea is to examine commonly held assumptions. It's an intellectual exercise, and a healthy one at that. As for the 'racist' comments, I don't think they're racist. The 'racist' argument being made can be summarised as... 'The idea that genetic diversity is equally balanced across all races has not been proven, it's an assumption made to further a political cause. However, even if there are genetic traits more closely associated with one race over the others, it does not make those other races inferior. This line of reasoning exposes another form of oppression, one based on intellect rather than genetics, where the right to rule over others is determined by perceived intellectual superiority.' To me, that's not racist. I do believe there are genetic dispositions amongst people of different backgrounds. For example, look at average height. If I go to Asia or South America and stand next to people I meet there, I would tend to be taller. Do I think I'm a better person than them because I'm taller? Fuck no. Can you appreciate this point of view?

gjm11 10y ago
I didn't say anything about racism. I said that that blog post seems like sufficient grounds to call the author an "outspoken advocate of slavery" even if when that becomes inconvenient for him he says he isn't one. And yes, he frames what he says as an exploration of Carlyle's ideas, but he's not just saying "Carlyle said this; isn't that interesting"; he's presenting his own opinions too. As for whether believing that white people are (statistically, on balance) cleverer than black people makes you a "racist" -- which, again, was not what I was referring to above: it's really a question about the definition of "racist", and disputes over definitions tend to be unfruitful. For what it's worth, I would not call anyone a racist merely for believing that proposition.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  > "he's not just saying "Carlyle said this; isn't that interesting"" From what I saw, that's exactly what I think he's saying, perhaps I missed something you saw, perhaps I didn't. It seems the conversation has pretty much run its course now, so shall we agree to disagree?