10 ms·

Hello! I'm one of the Urbit devs. 1. Has this ever actually happened? I'd be quite disturbed by that. We're more than happy to have people learning about U

by state 10y ago

Hello! I'm one of the Urbit devs. 1. Has this ever actually happened? I'd be quite disturbed by that. We're more than happy to have people learning about Urbit, although we're not particularly active on social media. 2. Curtis is certainly controversial. None of us share his views, but we do enjoy working together. I'd like to think we live in a world where people who don't agree can still collaborate professionally. 3. Learning Hoon is much easier than it looks. In my experience it's absolutely designed for usability — although it doesn't appear that way at first. We're actively working to better explain how Hoon works and teach people the language. It would be totally against our interests to do otherwise. I do think our new docs do a much better job: http://urbit.org/docs http://urbit.org/docs 4. There is a company behind Urbit, but it's not technically possible for us to control the project in the long term. Urbit is definitely not behind any kind of 'firewall' — it's designed to be owned by the community. I'd encourage you to check out the posts on our beliefs and principles [0], address space [1] and company [2]. 0 - http://urbit.org/posts/principles/ http://urbit.org/posts/principles/ 1 - http://urbit.org/posts/address-space/ http://urbit.org/posts/address-space/ 2 - http://urbit.org/posts/company/ http://urbit.org/posts/company/

zardgiv 10y ago
"Controversial" is the pinnacle of weasel words. How do you feel about his belief that some ethnic groups are genetically better slaves, and do you think that his views would make people from those ethnic groups feel welcome in your community?
- mundo 10y ago
  It would demonstrate a lot about the HN community if we could get through an entire Urbit post without it devolving in to yet another debate on Curtis Yarvin's (incredibly lengthy, vague and contradictory, and entirely irrelevant) views on race.
  - kefka 10y ago
    Its the whole of collections of views he is public about. We talk a great deal of "Good Fit" and the like when working on projects with others, or working for someone. This is a case where he would work better with his own kind: racists, sexists, and bigots. Like attracts like.
    - Karunamon 10y ago
      You mean aside from the project under discussion? Why are his personal views even relevant here?
      - zorpner 10y ago
        Because they're so repugnant that they make reasonable people question why anyone would be willing to tolerate, let alone defend him. He's freely declared himself so reprehensible that it impairs his ability to lead any project because it will inevitably attract this type of discussion. If you'd prefer this not to be the case, please outline what restrictions on free speech you'd like emplaced so that people would not be able to discuss his views.
        ZenoArrow 10y ago
        Stop with the ad hominem attacks and start posting something of substance. If you have examples of these 'repugnant' views then share them, I haven't seen anything that matches that description when read in context.
        JeremyBanks 10y ago
        I would benefit from this. I don't doubt that Curtis's views are probably offensive, but I haven't seen a clear description of them to conclude that for myself. I tried reading some of his writing, but it seemed so abstract and obfuscated that I gave up before understanding what he was trying to get across. I've seen one-sentence descriptions of his beliefs and they sound horrible, but I've also seen enough tweet-length mischaracterizations of others' beliefs to take those as accurate. Is there like an intermediate-level overview of Curtis's offensive beliefs, with a glossary and index? I'd be surprised if nobody's assembled one; it could make the ad hominems so much more effective.
  - cwyers 10y ago
    It wouldn't demonstrate anything that would make it a community I want to be a part of, though.
- TruthAndDare 10y ago
  > his belief that some ethnic groups are genetically better slaves I'm curious, do you take that to speak well or ill about the ethnic groups in question?
  - chriswait 10y ago
    It's a shame you were downvoted here, you're asking a pretty interesting question.
    - TruthAndDare 10y ago
      Yeah, I mean, being strong as an ox would mean both that your abilities are superior to those of others and that you would make for a useful slave.
- 5F36B5F62640 10y ago
  The comments that I have seen from him on that topic (and it should be noted that I have only read a small part of his comments so this may not be representative of his thoughts on these matters) implied that those groups were better slaves because they were more resilient or stronger, so were able to better survive slavery than less resilient or weaker groups. I don't see why that would make people from those groups feel unwelcome. If anything I would expect people from the groups that he says were genetically not as good as slaves to be the ones who would feel unwelcome. The implication is that they are weaker or less resilient.
  - zardgiv 10y ago
    Wait, so your argument is that only Native Americans would feel unwelcome in this community? Is this supposed to be in his favor? EDIT: For clarity
    - lhnz 10y ago
      > So your argument is that Native Americans should feel unwelcome in this community? You're putting words in 5F36B5F62640's mouth. And to be absolutely honest, anybody reading this can see that you're the one attempting to make people feel unwelcome in this community. Edit: The commenter has now upgraded his comment but the original with added emphasis is quoted above.
      - zardgiv 10y ago
        That was the example Moldbug used, claiming that Africans made genetically better slaves than Native Americans. 5F36B5F62640 contended that the groups that were not better slaves should feel unwelcome. This is just the basic logical implication of taking those two claims together. Rather than attacking me personally, is there something I missed or was incorrect about?
        lhnz 10y ago
        You created a 'should' from a 'would', and therefore implied that 5F36B5F62640 had ill-feelings towards Indians. I'm not attacking you personally, nor am I speaking to you personally. I am just pointing out to anybody reading this, that you just tried to smear somebody. Of course, whether you did so on purpose is another matter.
aaroninsf 10y ago
Shame on you. Why are you and other devs are collaborators in behavior that should _never_ be tolerated? I don't give a FF how 'smart' (sic) Curtis is. When he crosses the line, YOU have a moral choice, and you should and will be judged accordingly. Do nothing to reinforce the line, enforce no consequences? _You are a coward, you are complicit, and your place should be removed from the table as well._ _Smart (sic) does not excuse anyone. Arguably, the expectations should be higher._
- Moshe_Silnorin 10y ago
  The norm of shunning people for having ideas you disagree with would result in the collapse of society.
  - zardgiv 10y ago
    This is absolutely silly. Just to take it to absurdity, and I'm not claiming Moldbug is a member of the Nazi party, but society would not collapse if we shunned people who espoused, for example, the ideals of Hitler and the Nazi party.
    - yebyen 10y ago
      "I'm not saying he's a Nazi, but if he was..." -- Every post about Curtis Yarvin, ever. Sorry for knee-jerking, but there is really no basis for equating Mencius Moldbug to a Nazi, and I think it hurts the discussion when you do! I have read some of the texts in question, on the insistence of people who say I should disavow this person who I consider to be a real pal. I read the post "Why I am not a White Nationalist" and I don't know how anyone without an agenda can come to the conclusion that this is a person with hate in his bones.
      - zardgiv 10y ago
        I am stating that there are plenty of beliefs that do not cause society's collapse if we shun them. The only reason I mentioned Moldbug was that he's part of the dialog here, and I wanted to make sure people did not misconstrue what I said as a claim about him. Since you just misconstrued what I said, I was clearly unsuccessful.
lisper 10y ago
> Hello! I'm one of the Urbit devs. Can you please explain to me what a "non-lambda interpreter" is and why it matters?
- state 10y ago
  We had this argument in person! Or, at least we had a good chunk of it. It was cut short, and I think it's my fault for not re-initiating it. As you may remember, I'm really not the person to answer that question sufficiently. But I would like to see you and Curtis have this out at greater length.
  - lisper 10y ago
    > We had this argument in person! Sorry, I didn't recognize your handle. (And just for the record, I wasn't trying to start an argument, just asking a question.) > it's my fault OK ;-) > I'm really not the person to answer that question sufficiently. OK. > But I would like to see you and Curtis have this out at greater length. Well, we're already having something out in another branch of this thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11819810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11819810). But it's rather hard to get a straight answer out of him. He has this weird theory that the only way to avoid being sucked into the Lisp Failure Vortex is to not learn Lisp. But at the same time he professes his intentional ignorance of Lisp he also takes these weird pot-shots at it. That is, alas, not a good foundation for a constructive discussion, which is why I was hoping (and continue to hope) that you (or someone) might be able to explain it to me.
    - state 10y ago
      > Sorry, I didn't recognize your handle. No problem. Just, you know, hi! I'm actually happy to pick this thread up. I remember really enjoying the last discussion. As (I think) we discussed last time I basically have two views: - Urbit actually works. Like, I actually build stuff on top of it. That's really the layer I'm most interested in. If it were built in Lisp, well, I probably wouldn't know the difference. I'm not sure I'm able to understand the implicit criticism at the user level. - Shaking off the cruft of existing systems is actually pretty hard. I don't have as much experience with this as a programmer as Curtis does, but it's a problem near and dear to me. It's very difficult to think clearly inside of someone else's intellectual framework. So, maybe Hoon looks like a bad Lisp variant today. What does it look like in 50 years? Maybe it's dead, maybe it's everywhere. I'm not sure we can actually make this judgement for certain. That is: whether Nock / Hoon is definitively better or worse in terms of its long-term adoption and performance. What Nock does seem to unlock is incredible amount of enthusiasm. The feeling of disillusionment can easily be converted into excitement. I've seen this done by Urbit — and that's pretty difficult to do. My intuition is that Lisp suffers from the opposite: the feeling that breaking from its history is impossible. Either way I'm serious about getting you two to have this out in some kind of organized way. Ideally, on Urbit somehow.

by state 10y ago

zardgiv 10y ago

"Controversial" is the pinnacle of weasel words. How do you feel about his belief that some ethnic groups are genetically better slaves, and do you think that his views would make people from those ethnic groups feel welcome in your community?

mundo 10y ago
It would demonstrate a lot about the HN community if we could get through an entire Urbit post without it devolving in to yet another debate on Curtis Yarvin's (incredibly lengthy, vague and contradictory, and entirely irrelevant) views on race.
- kefka 10y ago
  Its the whole of collections of views he is public about. We talk a great deal of "Good Fit" and the like when working on projects with others, or working for someone. This is a case where he would work better with his own kind: racists, sexists, and bigots. Like attracts like.
  - Karunamon 10y ago
    You mean aside from the project under discussion? Why are his personal views even relevant here?
    - zorpner 10y ago
      Because they're so repugnant that they make reasonable people question why anyone would be willing to tolerate, let alone defend him. He's freely declared himself so reprehensible that it impairs his ability to lead any project because it will inevitably attract this type of discussion. If you'd prefer this not to be the case, please outline what restrictions on free speech you'd like emplaced so that people would not be able to discuss his views.
      - ZenoArrow 10y ago
        Stop with the ad hominem attacks and start posting something of substance. If you have examples of these 'repugnant' views then share them, I haven't seen anything that matches that description when read in context.
        JeremyBanks 10y ago
        I would benefit from this. I don't doubt that Curtis's views are probably offensive, but I haven't seen a clear description of them to conclude that for myself. I tried reading some of his writing, but it seemed so abstract and obfuscated that I gave up before understanding what he was trying to get across. I've seen one-sentence descriptions of his beliefs and they sound horrible, but I've also seen enough tweet-length mischaracterizations of others' beliefs to take those as accurate. Is there like an intermediate-level overview of Curtis's offensive beliefs, with a glossary and index? I'd be surprised if nobody's assembled one; it could make the ad hominems so much more effective.
- cwyers 10y ago
  It wouldn't demonstrate anything that would make it a community I want to be a part of, though.
TruthAndDare 10y ago
> his belief that some ethnic groups are genetically better slaves I'm curious, do you take that to speak well or ill about the ethnic groups in question?
- chriswait 10y ago
  It's a shame you were downvoted here, you're asking a pretty interesting question.
  - TruthAndDare 10y ago
    Yeah, I mean, being strong as an ox would mean both that your abilities are superior to those of others and that you would make for a useful slave.
5F36B5F62640 10y ago
The comments that I have seen from him on that topic (and it should be noted that I have only read a small part of his comments so this may not be representative of his thoughts on these matters) implied that those groups were better slaves because they were more resilient or stronger, so were able to better survive slavery than less resilient or weaker groups. I don't see why that would make people from those groups feel unwelcome. If anything I would expect people from the groups that he says were genetically not as good as slaves to be the ones who would feel unwelcome. The implication is that they are weaker or less resilient.
- zardgiv 10y ago
  Wait, so your argument is that only Native Americans would feel unwelcome in this community? Is this supposed to be in his favor? EDIT: For clarity
  - lhnz 10y ago
    > So your argument is that Native Americans should feel unwelcome in this community? You're putting words in 5F36B5F62640's mouth. And to be absolutely honest, anybody reading this can see that you're the one attempting to make people feel unwelcome in this community. Edit: The commenter has now upgraded his comment but the original with added emphasis is quoted above.
    - zardgiv 10y ago
      That was the example Moldbug used, claiming that Africans made genetically better slaves than Native Americans. 5F36B5F62640 contended that the groups that were not better slaves should feel unwelcome. This is just the basic logical implication of taking those two claims together. Rather than attacking me personally, is there something I missed or was incorrect about?
      - lhnz 10y ago
        You created a 'should' from a 'would', and therefore implied that 5F36B5F62640 had ill-feelings towards Indians. I'm not attacking you personally, nor am I speaking to you personally. I am just pointing out to anybody reading this, that you just tried to smear somebody. Of course, whether you did so on purpose is another matter.

aaroninsf 10y ago

Shame on you. Why are you and other devs are collaborators in behavior that should _never_ be tolerated? I don't give a FF how 'smart' (sic) Curtis is. When he crosses the line, YOU have a moral choice, and you should and will be judged accordingly. Do nothing to reinforce the line, enforce no consequences? _You are a coward, you are complicit, and your place should be removed from the table as well._ _Smart (sic) does not excuse anyone. Arguably, the expectations should be higher._

Moshe_Silnorin 10y ago
The norm of shunning people for having ideas you disagree with would result in the collapse of society.
- zardgiv 10y ago
  This is absolutely silly. Just to take it to absurdity, and I'm not claiming Moldbug is a member of the Nazi party, but society would not collapse if we shunned people who espoused, for example, the ideals of Hitler and the Nazi party.
  - yebyen 10y ago
    "I'm not saying he's a Nazi, but if he was..." -- Every post about Curtis Yarvin, ever. Sorry for knee-jerking, but there is really no basis for equating Mencius Moldbug to a Nazi, and I think it hurts the discussion when you do! I have read some of the texts in question, on the insistence of people who say I should disavow this person who I consider to be a real pal. I read the post "Why I am not a White Nationalist" and I don't know how anyone without an agenda can come to the conclusion that this is a person with hate in his bones.
    - zardgiv 10y ago
      I am stating that there are plenty of beliefs that do not cause society's collapse if we shun them. The only reason I mentioned Moldbug was that he's part of the dialog here, and I wanted to make sure people did not misconstrue what I said as a claim about him. Since you just misconstrued what I said, I was clearly unsuccessful.

lisper 10y ago

> Hello! I'm one of the Urbit devs. Can you please explain to me what a "non-lambda interpreter" is and why it matters?

state 10y ago
We had this argument in person! Or, at least we had a good chunk of it. It was cut short, and I think it's my fault for not re-initiating it. As you may remember, I'm really not the person to answer that question sufficiently. But I would like to see you and Curtis have this out at greater length.
- lisper 10y ago
  > We had this argument in person! Sorry, I didn't recognize your handle. (And just for the record, I wasn't trying to start an argument, just asking a question.) > it's my fault OK ;-) > I'm really not the person to answer that question sufficiently. OK. > But I would like to see you and Curtis have this out at greater length. Well, we're already having something out in another branch of this thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11819810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11819810). But it's rather hard to get a straight answer out of him. He has this weird theory that the only way to avoid being sucked into the Lisp Failure Vortex is to not learn Lisp. But at the same time he professes his intentional ignorance of Lisp he also takes these weird pot-shots at it. That is, alas, not a good foundation for a constructive discussion, which is why I was hoping (and continue to hope) that you (or someone) might be able to explain it to me.
  - state 10y ago
    > Sorry, I didn't recognize your handle. No problem. Just, you know, hi! I'm actually happy to pick this thread up. I remember really enjoying the last discussion. As (I think) we discussed last time I basically have two views: - Urbit actually works. Like, I actually build stuff on top of it. That's really the layer I'm most interested in. If it were built in Lisp, well, I probably wouldn't know the difference. I'm not sure I'm able to understand the implicit criticism at the user level. - Shaking off the cruft of existing systems is actually pretty hard. I don't have as much experience with this as a programmer as Curtis does, but it's a problem near and dear to me. It's very difficult to think clearly inside of someone else's intellectual framework. So, maybe Hoon looks like a bad Lisp variant today. What does it look like in 50 years? Maybe it's dead, maybe it's everywhere. I'm not sure we can actually make this judgement for certain. That is: whether Nock / Hoon is definitively better or worse in terms of its long-term adoption and performance. What Nock does seem to unlock is incredible amount of enthusiasm. The feeling of disillusionment can easily be converted into excitement. I've seen this done by Urbit — and that's pretty difficult to do. My intuition is that Lisp suffers from the opposite: the feeling that breaking from its history is impossible. Either way I'm serious about getting you two to have this out in some kind of organized way. Ideally, on Urbit somehow.