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> If the US government is unable to change the government of Cuba (including the disastrous attempt at the Bay of Pigs and the decades long trade embargo) The

> If the US government is unable to change the government of Cuba (including the disastrous attempt at the Bay of Pigs and the decades long trade embargo) The longest standing issue facing Cubans is the US trade embargo and that has always been in it's power to fix... > If there is no peace in Syria, so the goal of returning home cannot be achieved, what then There is no peace in Syria because of over a decade of destabilizing policies and engagements by the US in that region, which Europe has mostly supported. More generally, as to 2of3 examples which you provided - the refugees aren't due to some terrible internal policies of these countries or natural catastrophies - but majorly due to Western/US involvement.

bryanlarsen 10y ago
"There is no peace in Syria because of over a decade of destabilizing policies and engagements by the US in that region, which Europe has mostly supported." There are probably about a dozen major causes of the problems in Syria, of which US/western involvement is only one. There's lots of blame to be spread around.
- iak8god 10y ago
  > There are probably about a dozen major causes of the problems in Syria, of which US/western involvement is only one. Can we get a few examples?
  - jcranmer 10y ago
    * The failure of the Ottoman Empire to create a unified culture and nation state. * Religious rivalry between Sunni and Shiite Islam. * Regional rivalry between Saudi Arabia (an autocratic Sunni state heavily reliant on a very conservative sect (Wahhabi) for legitimacy) and Iran (a theocratic Shiite state). * Oil being the main economic mainstay, and not being conveniently divvied up among different ethnic regions * Great power ambitions on the part of Turkey * Superpower ambitions on the part of Russia * The failure of any state in the region to produce viable governments with strong internal legitimacy, rather than series of political "revolutions" that led to changing merely of who was treating the state as their feeding trough * Western engagement in the region * Western disengagement in the region (damned if you do, damned if you don't...) I'm probably missing some, but it's worth noting that while the Iraq War didn't help the situation in the Middle East, it's not like a strong dictator is an effective guarantee of internal security--after all, the Arab Spring started in Tunisia, instigated primarily by local causes (and the only country that seems to have actually improved its situation as a result!).
    - iak8god 10y ago
      Thank you. I do think many of those things are themselves caused by Western meddling in the region, but mostly before the US got into the game.
    - FreedomToCreate 10y ago
      This comment should be at the top. So many westerners who bash their own governments, communities and beliefs without any real knowledge of the situations and what caused them.
  - wmil 10y ago
    * Unsustainable population growth By 2012 the population of Syria had doubled since 1986, despite massive emigration. A huge chunk of the country was under 30. This lead to problems with employment, housing, water, food, etc. Which in tern led to escalating sectarian tensions.
- forgotpwtomain 10y ago
  > There are probably about a dozen major causes of the problems in Syria, of which US/western involvement is only one. Yes, but there is a significant difference between a terrible government and a full blown civil war. It's really impossible to see the later happening without US involvement.
  - bryanlarsen 10y ago
    To riff on jcranmer's excellent comment: * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without the failure of the Ottoman Empire to create a unified culture and nation state. * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without Religious rivalry between Sunni and Shiite Islam. * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without Regional rivalry between Saudi Arabia (an autocratic Sunni state heavily reliant on a very conservative sect (Wahhabi) for legitimacy) and Iran (a theocratic Shiite state). * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without Oil being the main economic mainstay, and not being conveniently divvied up among different ethnic regions * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without Great power ambitions on the part of Turkey * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without Superpower ambitions on the part of Russia * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without The failure of any state in the region to produce viable governments with strong internal legitimacy, rather than series of political "revolutions" that led to changing merely of who was treating the state as their feeding trough * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without Western engagement in the region * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without Western disengagement in the region
    - forgotpwtomain 10y ago
      I've read his comment - I really don't see the purpose achieved by you copy and pasting it. His comment was a response as to why Syria has problems, not as to why there is civil war. Your take on his comment: > it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without the failure of the Ottoman Empire to create a unified culture and nation state Is something the equivalent that blaming the bombing of Hiroshima on the Shogunate would be. If you do not see the difference between historical events which contributed to a circumstance and recent ones which precipitated the events stemming from a circumstance (e.g. Truman's authorization) - than I think there is no way we can have a conversation.
dalke 10y ago
I am not talking about the Cubans living in Cuba, just like the Dalai Lama is not talking about the Syrians in Syria. If the Dalai Lama says exiles should be treated as temporary residents, and have the goal of returning to their country, then what should the US have done for the Cuban exiles now living in the US? Your mention of "Western/US involvement" is a distraction. The Dalai Lama's comments appear to be meant to apply universally. In any case, after centuries of Western colonialism and the US/USSR Cold War, there's hardly a place on the planet which isn't majorly affected by "Western/US involvement".
yummyfajitas 10y ago
The trade embargo is NOT a major issue for Cubans. The effect of the embargo is that economically, the US is essentially a big hole in the water that you can't trade with (kind of like the Atlantic ocean to the east of Cuba). The longest standing issue facing the Cubans is Communism.
- andrenth 10y ago
  Exactly. They are able to trade with every other country in the world, and yet Cubans are still living in poverty. If the embargo was lifted, the US would be blamed for "forcing their imperialist products down Cubans' throats". There's always an easy discourse for Latin American dictators when things go south, to be promptly parroted by useful idiots (to use Lenin's nomenclature).
  - dalke 10y ago
    It's also easy to point to Cuba, and ignore the other countries in the Caribbean. By most measures (GDP/capita, GNI/capita, life expectancy at birth), Cuba is about the same or better than the Dominican Republic, Haiti, and Jamaica. The DR and Haiti, like Cuba, have a long history of being run by dictators. But has been a parliamentary democracy since independence from the UK in 1962. FWIW, the World Bank says 41% of the DR, 58% of Haiti, and 20% of Jamaica are below the national poverty lines. It doesn't give a number for Cuba. Puerto Rico has a GDP/capita about 5x higher than Cuba, built in part on the special tax status of PR as a US territory. But PR is also in an economic crisis that Cuba isn't facing. And 45% of the country is below the federal poverty line http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/04/06/the-puerto-rican-problem http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/04/06/the-puerto-rica... . How do you measure the poverty of Cuba? How do you compare it to other poor but non-Communist Caribbean countries, and then conclude the difference is due to Communism?
    - andrenth 10y ago
      One measure I like is number o citizens trying to escape the country. But I guess it's only in Cuba that leaving is forbidden. Unfortunately being a democracy isn't enough. Without reasonably free market, quality of life for the population will never increase. Both Dominican Republic and Haiti have low scores in the economic freedom index, for example.

bryanlarsen 10y ago

"There is no peace in Syria because of over a decade of destabilizing policies and engagements by the US in that region, which Europe has mostly supported." There are probably about a dozen major causes of the problems in Syria, of which US/western involvement is only one. There's lots of blame to be spread around.

iak8god 10y ago
> There are probably about a dozen major causes of the problems in Syria, of which US/western involvement is only one. Can we get a few examples?
- jcranmer 10y ago
  * The failure of the Ottoman Empire to create a unified culture and nation state. * Religious rivalry between Sunni and Shiite Islam. * Regional rivalry between Saudi Arabia (an autocratic Sunni state heavily reliant on a very conservative sect (Wahhabi) for legitimacy) and Iran (a theocratic Shiite state). * Oil being the main economic mainstay, and not being conveniently divvied up among different ethnic regions * Great power ambitions on the part of Turkey * Superpower ambitions on the part of Russia * The failure of any state in the region to produce viable governments with strong internal legitimacy, rather than series of political "revolutions" that led to changing merely of who was treating the state as their feeding trough * Western engagement in the region * Western disengagement in the region (damned if you do, damned if you don't...) I'm probably missing some, but it's worth noting that while the Iraq War didn't help the situation in the Middle East, it's not like a strong dictator is an effective guarantee of internal security--after all, the Arab Spring started in Tunisia, instigated primarily by local causes (and the only country that seems to have actually improved its situation as a result!).
  - iak8god 10y ago
    Thank you. I do think many of those things are themselves caused by Western meddling in the region, but mostly before the US got into the game.
  - FreedomToCreate 10y ago
    This comment should be at the top. So many westerners who bash their own governments, communities and beliefs without any real knowledge of the situations and what caused them.
- wmil 10y ago
  * Unsustainable population growth By 2012 the population of Syria had doubled since 1986, despite massive emigration. A huge chunk of the country was under 30. This lead to problems with employment, housing, water, food, etc. Which in tern led to escalating sectarian tensions.
forgotpwtomain 10y ago
> There are probably about a dozen major causes of the problems in Syria, of which US/western involvement is only one. Yes, but there is a significant difference between a terrible government and a full blown civil war. It's really impossible to see the later happening without US involvement.
- bryanlarsen 10y ago
  To riff on jcranmer's excellent comment: * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without the failure of the Ottoman Empire to create a unified culture and nation state. * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without Religious rivalry between Sunni and Shiite Islam. * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without Regional rivalry between Saudi Arabia (an autocratic Sunni state heavily reliant on a very conservative sect (Wahhabi) for legitimacy) and Iran (a theocratic Shiite state). * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without Oil being the main economic mainstay, and not being conveniently divvied up among different ethnic regions * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without Great power ambitions on the part of Turkey * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without Superpower ambitions on the part of Russia * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without The failure of any state in the region to produce viable governments with strong internal legitimacy, rather than series of political "revolutions" that led to changing merely of who was treating the state as their feeding trough * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without Western engagement in the region * it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without Western disengagement in the region
  - forgotpwtomain 10y ago
    I've read his comment - I really don't see the purpose achieved by you copy and pasting it. His comment was a response as to why Syria has problems, not as to why there is civil war. Your take on his comment: > it's impossible to see full blown civil war happening without the failure of the Ottoman Empire to create a unified culture and nation state Is something the equivalent that blaming the bombing of Hiroshima on the Shogunate would be. If you do not see the difference between historical events which contributed to a circumstance and recent ones which precipitated the events stemming from a circumstance (e.g. Truman's authorization) - than I think there is no way we can have a conversation.

dalke 10y ago

I am not talking about the Cubans living in Cuba, just like the Dalai Lama is not talking about the Syrians in Syria. If the Dalai Lama says exiles should be treated as temporary residents, and have the goal of returning to their country, then what should the US have done for the Cuban exiles now living in the US? Your mention of "Western/US involvement" is a distraction. The Dalai Lama's comments appear to be meant to apply universally. In any case, after centuries of Western colonialism and the US/USSR Cold War, there's hardly a place on the planet which isn't majorly affected by "Western/US involvement".

yummyfajitas 10y ago

The trade embargo is NOT a major issue for Cubans. The effect of the embargo is that economically, the US is essentially a big hole in the water that you can't trade with (kind of like the Atlantic ocean to the east of Cuba). The longest standing issue facing the Cubans is Communism.

andrenth 10y ago
Exactly. They are able to trade with every other country in the world, and yet Cubans are still living in poverty. If the embargo was lifted, the US would be blamed for "forcing their imperialist products down Cubans' throats". There's always an easy discourse for Latin American dictators when things go south, to be promptly parroted by useful idiots (to use Lenin's nomenclature).
- dalke 10y ago
  It's also easy to point to Cuba, and ignore the other countries in the Caribbean. By most measures (GDP/capita, GNI/capita, life expectancy at birth), Cuba is about the same or better than the Dominican Republic, Haiti, and Jamaica. The DR and Haiti, like Cuba, have a long history of being run by dictators. But has been a parliamentary democracy since independence from the UK in 1962. FWIW, the World Bank says 41% of the DR, 58% of Haiti, and 20% of Jamaica are below the national poverty lines. It doesn't give a number for Cuba. Puerto Rico has a GDP/capita about 5x higher than Cuba, built in part on the special tax status of PR as a US territory. But PR is also in an economic crisis that Cuba isn't facing. And 45% of the country is below the federal poverty line http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/04/06/the-puerto-rican-problem http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/04/06/the-puerto-rica... . How do you measure the poverty of Cuba? How do you compare it to other poor but non-Communist Caribbean countries, and then conclude the difference is due to Communism?
  - andrenth 10y ago
    One measure I like is number o citizens trying to escape the country. But I guess it's only in Cuba that leaving is forbidden. Unfortunately being a democracy isn't enough. Without reasonably free market, quality of life for the population will never increase. Both Dominican Republic and Haiti have low scores in the economic freedom index, for example.