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Your argument is dominated by pragmatism, which often obfuscates what religion is all about. Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and mo

Your argument is dominated by pragmatism, which often obfuscates what religion is all about. Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and morality of religious people. You could gather just as many atheists and the response wouldn't be the same. EDIT: I'm not saying an atheist community would be WORSE than Christianity. I'm saying it would be DIFFERENT from the Christian one.

Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
>Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and morality of religious people You don't give athiests and agnostics enough credit. Religion is not required for morals and community values.
- further_tech 10y ago
  At its core, Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc. Maybe some atheists also have these, but there's not a guarantee all act this way. IMO, before founding an "atheist church", I'd at least establish "secular values" and find a community around it. EDIT: I was called a "delusional idiot" for claiming Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness. I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUES. Something must be aspired for and desired in social interactions. I'm well aware of "hypocritical Christians", it has nothing to do with them. If you cannot understand that, I'm not a "delusional idiot"; you are just ignorant.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    Maybe some Christians have those, but -- and I say this as a Christian -- it's far from true that all members of Christian faith traditions have those. So you haven't really pointed to a real difference.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
    I remember my mother telling stories about her mother putting out her cigarette in the car and spraying perfume on herself and her kids before going to church every sunday so that no one would know she was smoking.
  - BEEdwards 10y ago
    You are a delusional idiot if you think thank somehow just going to church gives you a blanket "defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc." christians have no problem being exclusionary assholes who punish people for existing. IMO maybe christians should get their shit together before they start tying to convince people they are the only way to have good values.
    - dang 10y ago
      Religious flamewars are not welcome on Hacker News. Please don't post any more comments like this. Also, please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11816578 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11816578.
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago
    > I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUES. I'm well aware of "hypocritical Christians", it has nothing to do with them. No true Scotsman!
    - further_tech 10y ago
      No. Please read more intelligently. I didn't use it to refer to "true Christians", but as an ontological description of Christianity.
      - Avshalom 10y ago
        I believe you'll find christianity to be largely defined by the Nicene Creed and/or Apostles' Creed, which is to say defined by believing in Christ.
    - humanrebar 10y ago
      The goalposts have to move within the conversation for a "no true Scotsman" to apply. On the contrary, establishing language that lets us distinguish between groups of people is a healthy way to promote understanding.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    The thing is, when adherence to a community is enforced (even if just through social pressure), you'll get a lot of uncommitted people who might even wish they would share the values, but don't. Atheists as a whole might be less likely to share a system of values, but those who sought and joined such an organization of their own volition (and not because their family dragged them to church every Sunday) are extremely likely to shared its values.
    - further_tech 10y ago
      There is no force to join a religious community. In this case, people have been doing this to deal with the alienation they face. Also, your second argument is ridiculous. Say you and me go to a party. We both decided this on our own. That doesn't mean we share A SINGLE value.
      - icebraining 10y ago
        >There is no force to join a religious community. I don't want to be rude, so instead of replying I'll just bow out of this conversation. Farewell.
      - humanrebar 10y ago
        > That doesn't mean we share A SINGLE value. You probably value a good party, right?
- humanrebar 10y ago
  > Religion is not required for morals and community values. See, I agree, but probably because I understand "religion" differently than you do. I would say, though, that love of God is required for morals and healthy community (not sure what 'community values' are). There are a lot of difficult things in this life (addiction, betrayal, chronic illness, corruption, oppression) that are difficult to tackle with bald reason, raw force of will, and whatever teamwork we can scrape together.
return0 10y ago
You are spot on about this , although i can see how your comment may be misinterpreted. The church is a pleasant place because people share similar morals. Atheists may have great morals, but there is little overlap. That is true for any secular group really. Setting up an adversarial type of gathering , from sports to politics will not be the same experience as the one that a church offers.
humanrebar 10y ago
> I'm not saying an atheist community would be WORSE than Christianity. I would, at least in the long run. There wouldn't be much point to being a Christian otherwise. NOTE: That's not to say that a given "Christian" is a "better person" than a given atheist. People, including "Christians" that think that don't really understand Christian philosophy.
dang 10y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11813876 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11813876 and marked it off-topic.

Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago

>Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and morality of religious people You don't give athiests and agnostics enough credit. Religion is not required for morals and community values.

further_tech 10y ago
At its core, Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc. Maybe some atheists also have these, but there's not a guarantee all act this way. IMO, before founding an "atheist church", I'd at least establish "secular values" and find a community around it. EDIT: I was called a "delusional idiot" for claiming Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness. I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUES. Something must be aspired for and desired in social interactions. I'm well aware of "hypocritical Christians", it has nothing to do with them. If you cannot understand that, I'm not a "delusional idiot"; you are just ignorant.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Maybe some Christians have those, but -- and I say this as a Christian -- it's far from true that all members of Christian faith traditions have those. So you haven't really pointed to a real difference.
- Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
  I remember my mother telling stories about her mother putting out her cigarette in the car and spraying perfume on herself and her kids before going to church every sunday so that no one would know she was smoking.
- BEEdwards 10y ago
  You are a delusional idiot if you think thank somehow just going to church gives you a blanket "defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc." christians have no problem being exclusionary assholes who punish people for existing. IMO maybe christians should get their shit together before they start tying to convince people they are the only way to have good values.
  - dang 10y ago
    Religious flamewars are not welcome on Hacker News. Please don't post any more comments like this. Also, please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11816578 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11816578.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  > I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUES. I'm well aware of "hypocritical Christians", it has nothing to do with them. No true Scotsman!
  - further_tech 10y ago
    No. Please read more intelligently. I didn't use it to refer to "true Christians", but as an ontological description of Christianity.
    - Avshalom 10y ago
      I believe you'll find christianity to be largely defined by the Nicene Creed and/or Apostles' Creed, which is to say defined by believing in Christ.
  - humanrebar 10y ago
    The goalposts have to move within the conversation for a "no true Scotsman" to apply. On the contrary, establishing language that lets us distinguish between groups of people is a healthy way to promote understanding.
- icebraining 10y ago
  The thing is, when adherence to a community is enforced (even if just through social pressure), you'll get a lot of uncommitted people who might even wish they would share the values, but don't. Atheists as a whole might be less likely to share a system of values, but those who sought and joined such an organization of their own volition (and not because their family dragged them to church every Sunday) are extremely likely to shared its values.
  - further_tech 10y ago
    There is no force to join a religious community. In this case, people have been doing this to deal with the alienation they face. Also, your second argument is ridiculous. Say you and me go to a party. We both decided this on our own. That doesn't mean we share A SINGLE value.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      >There is no force to join a religious community. I don't want to be rude, so instead of replying I'll just bow out of this conversation. Farewell.
    - humanrebar 10y ago
      > That doesn't mean we share A SINGLE value. You probably value a good party, right?
humanrebar 10y ago
> Religion is not required for morals and community values. See, I agree, but probably because I understand "religion" differently than you do. I would say, though, that love of God is required for morals and healthy community (not sure what 'community values' are). There are a lot of difficult things in this life (addiction, betrayal, chronic illness, corruption, oppression) that are difficult to tackle with bald reason, raw force of will, and whatever teamwork we can scrape together.

return0 10y ago

You are spot on about this , although i can see how your comment may be misinterpreted. The church is a pleasant place because people share similar morals. Atheists may have great morals, but there is little overlap. That is true for any secular group really. Setting up an adversarial type of gathering , from sports to politics will not be the same experience as the one that a church offers.

humanrebar 10y ago

> I'm not saying an atheist community would be WORSE than Christianity. I would, at least in the long run. There wouldn't be much point to being a Christian otherwise. NOTE: That's not to say that a given "Christian" is a "better person" than a given atheist. People, including "Christians" that think that don't really understand Christian philosophy.

dang 10y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11813876 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11813876 and marked it off-topic.